Is Ivanovich Right

[Scholes]

One thing kids here miss out on,is the kick arounds in the streets &parks that go on in European countries.During school breaks,after school,week-ends, kids throw down a couple of coats and its match on. How many times do you drive past an oval here& see it empty? Not even lads kicking around an afl ball!! You are going to get more injuries here as the grounds are so hard compared to Europe,especially in S.A. My feeling is the season is too short here,but only as far as games are concerned.For the amount of games played,we train way too much.And Im talking about fitness training,not ball work, technique,and tactics. P.S. Megabonus does not allow anyone to question his opinions on coaching,perhaps he could furnish us with his proper name, so we can see if he is capable of more than just quoting from articles written by others.

[Željko Jurin]

One thing kids here miss out on,is the kick arounds in the streets &parks that go on in European countries.During school breaks,after school,week-ends, kids throw down a couple of coats and its match on. How many times do you drive past an oval here& see it empty? Not even lads kicking around an afl ball!! You are going to get more injuries here as the grounds are so hard compared to Europe,especially in S.A. My feeling is the season is too short here,but only as far as games are concerned.For the amount of games played,we train way too much.And Im talking about fitness training,not ball work, technique,and tactics. P.S. Megabonus does not allow anyone to question his opinions on coaching,perhaps he could furnish us with his proper name, so we can see if he is capable of more than just quoting from articles written by others.

True, I've seen it first had, and thought the same. But then I think about the weather. In Europe they cant kick the ball around for approx 3 mths of the year due to snow, where as we did, and our kids can, kick the ball around 12 mths of the year. I think our kids dont go to the park as much anymore because of safety, too many sick f*cks around the place. In most of Europe (especially eastern europe) these types of people would be shot or their knobs cut off

[MegaBonus]

B.Toomer Posted: Wed Jan 09, 2008 1:06 pm Post subject: Is Ivanovic right?

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One thing kids here miss out on,is the kick arounds in the streets &parks that go on in European countries.During school breaks,after school,week-ends, kids throw down a couple of coats and its match on. How many times do you drive past an oval here& see it empty? Not even lads kicking around an afl ball!! You are going to get more injuries here as the grounds are so hard compared to Europe,especially in S.A. My feeling is the season is too short here,but only as far as games are concerned.For the amount of games played,we train way too much.And Im talking about fitness training,not ball work, technique,and tactics. P.S. Megabonus does not allow anyone to question his opinions on coaching,perhaps he could furnish us with his proper name, so we can see if he is capable of more than just quoting from articles written by others.

i base my opinions on my experiences, my coaching level, research and if not more importantly what ive learned/heard from respected members of the footballing community. many people on here know who i am!!!

whereas, you say

One thing kids here miss out on,is the kick arounds in the streets &parks that go on in European countries

this is wrong. eoropean countries, especially england are experiencing the same problems. parental concerns for their childs safety, electronic games, and a shortage of play areas (not so much in aust) are just some reasons

You are going to get more injuries here as the grounds are so hard compared to Europe,especially in S.A.

how do you know???

[mooroffside]

Sorry mate, your wrong as well. They do play at school during breaks and lunch. They play when they get home from school, at the weekend, evenings and during the day. Kids will always find somewhere to play, how do I know? I know because I'm English and my kids did it, also I still talk to mates back there.

I coached in England and we played from the start of Sept until Easter. We usually then continued training although we did have a few weeks off in the summer, this was to coincide with holidays. But if you wanted there was the summer comps to play in, you could play all summer in some sort of tournament if the cub was rich enough to enter them all. In winter we trained indoors, due to no lights.

I'm not entering into this discussion, just putting you straight on your England points.

[MegaBonus]

i respect that youve lived it 1st hand but i was referring to comments made by trevor brooking and the english FA after the croatia game.

these arent my rantings and ravings. studies show that children today (world wide in developed countries) in general arent playing outside as much and that most if not all of their football is supervised (ie club training) rather than non supervised.

being from england, you should know that the FA has introduced programs promoting 'street soccer' and small sided games.

i know that ive posted other stuff but this is what i found after a quick search

'Also, some of the lesser clubs, certainly those outside the Premiership, take the £138,000 grant given to them [for youth development] by the FA and Premier League to spend specifically on academies but use it for their first teams. I can name a few where the money goes nowhere near the youth set up.'

If that does not change soon, Trevor Brooking could be fighting a losing battle. He can only win it, he believes, by addressing a worrying culture of inactivity among the youngest. 'The sad fact is that some of the quality of introduction into physical activity these days is not good. It's reckoned nearly half of 11-year-olds leaving primary school are physically illiterate. So if we can get good quality coaches working with the five to 11s, my belief is that at 11 most youngsters should have the first touch, the ball manipulation and individual skill in place. It's pretty evident a lot of youngsters haven't

.


also


http://www.footballnews.com.au/forum/vi ... highlight=

[mooroffside]

I knew you would mention Trevor Brooking, but I deleted it form my original response. Explain to me, how some 10 to 15 year old not playing football in the park is the reason that England failed to qualifying for Euro 08. IT's BS. He was deflecting the true blame from the FA. and their ineptness of appointing McClown.

I've seen lots of academies in the North west of England, and believe me there are some bloody talented kids in there. I saw 5 year olds in a Man City Satelite academy, not even in the proper academy and they were amazing.

You can put forward the studies you have read, depends who put them together and what results they wanted. We've been in Australia 2 years now, and one of the first things we noticed was that kids don't "play out" Kids in England play football informally and informally.Like I said, it's only my experiences.

Yes I've been doing small sided games in my coaching for years.

[MegaBonus]

ive never claimed to be an expert... far from it. the beauty of this forum allows people like you and me to exchange ideas and experiences..

in your opinion (based on what you have experienced in england) and getting back to the original post, should our youth be playing more football???


as to why england have gone trophy-less since 1966 that is another topic altogether

[Scholes]

Megabonus, have you ever actually lived in England?Or anywhere in Europe? I have. I was last there in 2004 & what I have written on this forum is based on my own experiences, not what I have read in some doctored article of misquotes after it has been cut & shut by a cynical sub-editor, looking to make a name for himself. Still waiting for you to take a sip from the cup of courage & reveal your true identity.Anyone can say what they like, hiding behind an alias.Come on now, it wont hurt!!! Oh, and by the way, as to why Poland,Russia,Spain,Croatia,Yugoslavia,Portugal,Norway,Sweden,China or Australia have not won anything since before 1966 is another topic altogether.

[MegaBonus]

thanks for your contribution b toomer..... sorry, what is that youve contributed??????

[Scholes]

Run out of opinions, megabonus? Or just run out of answers? I know, you cant find the cup.

[MegaBonus]

i dont know what your problem is cause this isnt an anti english post but ive got plenty of opinions about

why england have only won one major trophy
why the coaches of the top 4 english teams are foreign
why the national coach is italian
why england is the only 'traditional' power house footballing nation to have ever employed a foreign coach
why aust has acknowledged that it must stop following/implementing traditional english coaching methodologies
why arsenal and chelsea are happy to play 11 foreigners

etc etc


ive played with and coached anglo australians for about 20 years. ive learnt many aspects of the game from them and id like to think that ive done the same for them!!!!

so dont start with this anti anglo/british crap!!!!!

[mooroffside]

Megabonus

I have already answered your question about playing all year round. I said we only had a few weeks off in the summer.

Please tell me about "why aust has acknowledged that it must stop following/implementing traditional english coaching methodologies". What are they? Just curious to see how many of them I do.

I read Johnny Warrens book over Christmas and he mentioned the very same thing. That was over 40 years ago, so why has it not changed in all that time? It's a genuine question and not a piss take.

[MegaBonus]

@ mooroffside

being born and raised in aust (parents from sth europe), i havent experienced the problem 1st hand (not in my youth anyway).

however, when i played for an anglo/aust club and coached teenagers from the northern suburbs, their way of training/coaching and playing was so completely different to what id ever experienced.

these are not necessaily criticisms but observations

* emphasis on physical ability, fitness and 'up and at them' attitude
* little emphasis on skill and technique development - lacking ability to solve 'footbal problems'
* only ever played with a rigid 4-4-2 system. (whenever i coach against predominantly anglo clubs - i utilise a 3-5-1-1 system and play a counter attacking game) remember the game when eng used a 3-5-2 against croatia???
* emphasis on wing attack only
* inability to hold onto the ball - play long 'into the mixer'
* very little improvisation

etc etc


the following are various links dealing with the issue



http://www.footballnews.com.au/forum/vi ... highlight=

http://au.fourfourtwo.com/features/3891 ... plash.aspx

http://goonerboy.blogspot.com/2007/02/p ... blame.html

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/7137071.stm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/footbal ... 080090.stm

http://stillbeautiful.wordpress.com/200 ... -football/

http://www.footballnews.com.au/forum/vi ... highlight=

http://www.footballnews.com.au/forum/vi ... highlight=

http://www.footballnews.com.au/forum/vi ... highlight=

http://www.footballnews.com.au/forum/vi ... highlight=

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/ ... 926251.ece

http://www.amazines.com/article_detail. ... creativity

[mooroffside]

Sorry I don't use any of those in my coaching. I think your views on English coaching is outdated as much as Foster's. I knew you going to quote him. He thinks that A legue teams don't pass the ball out of the defence, I think I've seen a few that do. Very credible to quote Foster.

I think you'll find that English grassroots coaching has had a upheaval over the last 10 years. They implemented new coaching courses, new thinking and a new vision (something recently done by FFA).
I've done the English FA course one and have seen the Aussy one. They are miles apart, it takes 12 days to get your English one (mine was longer, it was done by a Football League club) and it takes 2 to do the aussy one.
My sons were playing small sided games on small pitches since they were 6. They are now 13 and 11. This is something the FFA is bringing in now.
My lads have played against Welsh, Scottish, French, Dutch and Belgian teams and they held there own. What foreign teams have you had the pleasure of seeing.

Sorry mate, I've been there and it's not as your mate Foster says it is. It might have been 10 years ago when Foster was plying his trade in England but it isn't now. I've said before I've seen some of the academies and if you could go and see what they are about, you'll change your tune mate.

Stop showing me links to articles and give me what you actually know. What are your experiences in coaching in England and where you've been, what you've seen etc. You seem such an authority on it, I feel so inadequate and I've been there and done it.

Oh can you please cut and paste some more training tips, as the pre season is coming up. I've never laughed so much as when I read your tip about holding a trial. I can't wait for the pre season training one.

You still haven't answered why it hasn't changed over here in the last 40 years.

[MegaBonus]

funny how you mention only foster (who by the way has experienced both). hasnt foster and johnny warren been justified for their views re: youth development with the FFA new direction???????

what about comments by all the other authors???? why ignore them?? brooking pearce, waddle, capello, allardyce etc etc

you then attack me when i opened my previous post with

being born and raised in aust (parents from sth europe), i havent experienced the problem 1st hand (not in my youth anyway).

You still haven't answered why it hasn't changed over here in the last 40 years.

the same reason it hasnt changed in england

sorry... aust is ahead. weve got specialist football development programs eg AIS and all the state SASI's. england is debating whether or not to introduce a national academy.

i could post the link to the article but would you read it????

youve really got to get over this 'british and empire' stuff. england are no longer a powerhouse. for heavens sake, even greece have been champions of euro!!!!

[Drusetta]

Agree with a lot of points, esp. Black Hawk and JohnyDep.

It's up to us to let the children play. I agree they will stop when they get tired; or even develop other intetrests.

Children have lots of energy.
If they are really enjoying what they're doing and have a genuine passion for one particular sport I don't believe that they'll get burnt out.

IMO, others expectations may burn them out (as previously stated).

I think Milan was emphasising that we cannot expect to produce a superstar by training/playing 3 days a week for 9 months a year...and I agree.

I think most of us have either spoken to, read about, or seen interviews with international players and the common thread I've noticed was their passion to always play, day or night; in the street, in the backyard, at the local park. Talk is Cheap mentioned other sports were a must (at least that's how I interpreted it). I have to disagree. If they have a passion for one sport, let them play. The international players I refer to above have confirmed this.

[pvfc]

Children have lots of energy.
If they are really enjoying what they're doing and have a genuine passion for one particular sport I don't believe that they'll get burnt out.
.......... If they have a passion for one sport, let them play.

I do agree.
My daughter is an example of this. She plays/trains for about 48-49 weeks of the year - she does this because she is passionate about football and just wants to play. Even when she is not playing/training, she contstantly has a ball at her feet when she is in the house.
If she ever loses the passion for the game then so be it, but until then I'm quite happy for her to keep training and playing year round.

[Talk Is Cheap]

I wasn’t saying that kids “shouldâ€￾ be playing another sport, I was suggesting that if they were to participate in another sport, then that sport might benefit their football through using different muscles, skills, thought patterns, tactics, body strength, etc.
I also agree any child passionate enough to want to kick a ball around 12 months a year can and will still do so independent of how much of the year training is offered.
Capoeira is said to be an integral part of Brazil and other South American countries football skills.
It is an example of a sport (or art) that enhances football skills.
On a side issue, I also believe poverty and finding a means of escaping poverty provides a lot of kids in some other countries with a greater passion for the game of football.
We don’t really have that problem in this country of ours.

[eagles]

[lefty]

I think kids can play 10 months of the year. When I started playing sport at 4yrs old in the 70's thats all I did was run around playing soccer, squash & basketball for clubs, with local kids in the street and school. Nowdays our kids learn from out of date coaching techniques and video games. Also they dont run around playing sport and climb trees like we did they are wrapped up in bubblewrap and rarely get to play outside like we did other than with organised club or school games. Physically their bodies can handle it and I would like to see the Small Sided Games concept played all year winter and summer for kids.

[eagles]

I think kids can play 10 months of the year. When I started playing sport at 4yrs old in the 70's thats all I did was run around playing soccer, squash & basketball for clubs, with local kids in the street and school. Nowdays our kids learn from out of date coaching techniques and video games. Also they dont run around playing sport and climb trees like we did they are wrapped up in bubblewrap and rarely get to play outside like we did other than with organised club or school games. Physically their bodies can handle it and I would like to see the Small Sided Games concept played all year winter and summer for kids.

i was talking to someone from overseas and we were talking about the new small sided games that will be here next year.
he said that in europe it has been their for 2 to 3 years nows and it is becoming very big. the kids learn a lot more from it compared to the system we have here now,but in saying that i think it should not go past the under 11

[paul merson]

[eagles]

[johnydep]

................
I've done the English FA course one and have seen the Aussy one. They are miles apart, it takes 12 days to get your English one (mine was longer, it was done by a Football League club) and it takes 2 to do the aussy one.
.............

I don't know anything about the "English FA course" but i do know that in Australia there is more than one type of licence:

• Junior Licence - 16 hours
  Youth Licence - 24 hours
  Senior Licence - 60 hours

Those are the basic coaching licence requirements for S.A.

If you're wanting something more serious, you have these:

• ADVANCED COACHING COURSES - 2008
  
  A CERTIFICATE (PART B) AIS, CANBERRA FEBRUARY 2-17
  A CERTIFICATE (PART A) AIS, CANBERRA MARCH 15-30
  B CERTIFICATE AIS, CANBERRA APRIL 19-MAY 11
  GOALKEEPING LEVEL 1 AIS, CANBERRA MAY 22-28
  C CERTIFICATE AIS, CANBERRA OCTOBER 25-NOVEMBER 8
  FUTSAL LEVEL 1 AIS, CANBERRA NOVEMBER 29-DECEMBER 6

[mooroffside]

12 days is for the basic level 1, Then there's level 2 then Uefa B, Uefa A, Uefa Pro.

I was only trying to point out to Mega the difference in the length of time taken. The old ways in England have gone.

Mega I dont' think I'll ever convince you that the way things are coached in England has changed.

I'll tell you what, come along to one of my training sessions and I'll see if I can change your mind. PM if your interested.

[MegaBonus]

@ mooroffside

with all due respect, youve made this personal!!!!

this post was never about english football. all ive ever alluded to, was the fact that western countries (especially english speaking ones USA UK, aust) are in the midst of an obesity problem. there are many reasons for this, 1 being the lack of exercise.

i have restrained myself from attacking you personally because im not arrogant enough to judge you just from what you write on the forum.

you dont know me, nor know what i know who i know and what ive learnt from my experiences.

for someone who has completed the FA course one what role do you play on these forums????

[fossil]

[harrycripps]

As with most threads on coaching and junior football, most people are right in their observations most of the time, either because they have kids and/or they have the game at heart.

And with most threads they go off on a tangent. Just like me.

From what I have read over the last year or so on this forum, Megabonus, Squizzy and Zelko Jurin and others, speak intelligently and with passion, so I think that sledging is not appropriate. We have more class than the tossers who think that cricket is actually as important as football.

My imput is that Milan is correct in stating that kids should not drop football for more than a few weeks in the year. As with any athlete or sportsman, professional person in any field, doctor accountant etc, the intensity levels of education need to be regulated.

Futsal and indoor soccer, as stated by some forumites, is that drop in intensity, with the foot skills and mental game reading skills enhanced, which keeps their interest without boring them. My boys are skateboarding this summer, good for balance and confidence, not burning them out mentally.

Also the discussion regarding the English coaching style is relevant. As a 48 yr old Englishman having experienced the ineptitude of the English coaching system in the seventies, and watching the training sessions at Bradford City when my brother in law was there as a junior about 10 years ago, I agree with Foster, the English ideal of fitness ethic over skill is not to be followed.

Mooroffside says that the style of coaching has changed in the last 10 years, and I hope for the sake of the game in England it has. So when they get it right we will use their intuition.

But now that I am an Aussie, (my brain doesnt fit my skull anymore), and we are mostly parents or coaches, I dont know about you, but shouldnt we give our kids every chance to excel in the land of opportunity. That means looking towards the styles and cultures of the coaching regimes around the world, deciding what suits us best, putting the right people in place to make the hard decisions at the top, (FFA, FFSA et al), and allowing our kids to fulfill their potential. and not end up with parents living their dreams through their kids, like most of us.

We as the footballing community need to listen, watch and learn, and stop being self righteous.

God bless, vote for Harrycripps

[Talk Is Cheap]

In line with the discussions within this thread....about which training path to follow ?
The African Nations seem to produce some amazing world class footballers.
When you read some of the topics in their forums there appears to be very little coordination and many of the players in their younger national sides often are not signed with big local clubs. Many players seem to be discovered playing "street football".
Can anyone shed any light on why they produce many exceptional footballers.
What training methods, philosophies etc.

example (poor quality images) http://youtube.com/watch?v=ckRy712zlpQ

[Mr DJ]

just from browsing through here, i lean towards agreeing that kids do not 'train' all year, they are kids, even just organise em go to one of our nice beaches, couple cones at each end, voila. i think the biggest risk with all yeaer round though is the hard surfaces. i am not a case for everyone as im sure there are other resons behind it but... i grew up doing nothing but football from around 5. recess, lunch, after school and with my club. right through til i was 13 and tore my cartilege.!!! this is city and country turf. im now 21, will never play again because i have now done my cartilege again AND the ligaments in the same knee, while playing football. this is the only thing that concerns me, the wellbeing of the kids, especially knees and ankles. if hte kids love the game, they will play anyway, and if htese kids have the BRAIN for the game, they will practise their skills outside of organised trainig anyway, and will thrive. even other sports can help develop them better for football anyway, cricket = reflexes, eye hand coordination. AFL, help fitness, agility. etc.