To Barca or not to Barca - that is the question.

[altius]

I decided to move this from the original site to see if there might be a little more interest in a topic that
Kings jesta has raised. In my view it is the most critical question in the game at the present time. It is one that all coaches must resolve if they are to both develop skilled players and have a better chance of winning football games. Much of the debate seems to be based on an ideological position that ball possession is critical - when in fact the statistics say otherwise. For example Brazil and Germany scored only 33% and 25% of their goals from 6 passes or more hwie statistics sow that 85% of goals in virtually every level of play up to World Cup finals are scored with five passes or less. Here I must point out that a football game is a contest , it is not a beauty competition; as one South American player said when his team were criticized for playing successful but pragmatic football “If you want to watch art, go to the theatre or the opera.”

However the critical question for coaches working with young players is, do you spend your time teaching the techniques of the game or do you teach them how to play football? Of course they need to learn how to control and direct the ball but they also need to learn the fundamental principle of attack – that is - when you get the ball the first thing you should do is look to penetrate the defense, not make the easy pass to retain possession. If you do not have the space and time to select and execute a penetrating pass then you pass the ball to someone who does have space and time. This is a characteristic of good play in all invasion games such as Aussie Rules, Hockey Lacrosse and especially Basketball.

Why is this? It is because at the instant of transition – a change of possession – every former defender must become an attacker and vice versa every attacker must instantly become a defender. The fact is that players usually transition into attack a lot better than they do into defense so why not exploit that fact by playing behind them as quickly as possible. Conversely why give them time to get organized by simply aiming to retain possession. Barcelona could afford to do that because they were pretty confident that if they got to within 30 metres of goal and gave the ball to Messi, he would either score or create enough havoc to open up chances for team mates, The fact that the majority, if not all, of these players had been playing in the same club for 10 or more years surely played a part.

This at least puts a point of view but consider the following quotes, ‘When does a long ball become a long pass” by Graham Taylor; whose team enjoyed considerable success with a method in which the majority of their goals were scored with three passes or less.

“What is tactically desirable must be technically possible”, the author of this response.

Of course if a coach is sure that their team can succeed by playing ‘good’ football – the beautiful game - then that is the way they should play! But here it should be remembered that the top professional clubs like Barcelona can not only buy players who fit their system but they can also ensure that all of the youngsters involved in their development programs, often beginning before the age of eight, will learn to play the game in particular way. Here it is crucial to understand that not only will these players develop an understanding of the tactics favoured by the club but they will also develop the technical ability needed to exploit those tactics. It should also be remembered that many youngsters will be filtered out of the system if they cannot meet the requirements involved. This is not the case with around 99% of all the football teams in the world where the coach must make whatever they can of the players who volunteer to play. In this situation they must ask themselves, “What method or system of play will best suit the players we have”?

I will watch the European Cup final with interest because what I expect to see from both teams is a good balance between retaining possession and penetration through passing or dribbling.

[Željko Jurin]

Comparing what teams do at World Cups to what we should do at youth development level is crazy

Different development and learning for different ages, "the building blocks"

We teach possession at a young age to improve technique, all sorts of different aspects of technique .... scoring goals within 5 passes will not improve technique at youth level

[Con M]

Very good points about balance. I'll be watching too and expect to admire some killer through balls by the Bayern midfield with Ribery & Robben then taking on the flank defenders. Munich is after redemption and won't let this one go.

But just back to technique, the youngsters have to master ball control and technique. Do they play enough scratch matches at school and after school? Or are they all just driven by parents & guardians to their club's evening practice and hope for the best? As an aside, why do some clubs actively discourage their kids from playing for their schools as well? FFSA clubs play Sunday mornings, schools on Saturday mornings - the extra exposure to the ball won't hurt them.

I'll always remember being inspired by George Best's mastery and dribbling skills. Those were honed as a youngster playing endless games on the wastegrounds of Belfast before he went across to Manchester.

On a far less humble scene, I remember a bunch of us as kids also honing our skills by playing endless scratch games after school at Kensington Gardens or the old Farmers Union wasteground at Kensington until it went dark. Marryatville Primary kids from all sorts of backgrounds - Anglo-Aussie, Greek, Estonian, Cypriot, Italian, German - all developed good ball control. The only school we couldn't match it with was the brilliant Flinders St Primary, full of immigrant kids who continuously played street soccer in the eastern part of the city.

[MegaBonus]

For example Brazil and Germany scored only 33% and 25% of their goals from 6 passes or more

Useless stat proving nothing.....eg:

What if Germany/Brazil won the ball close to their oppositions goal? You wouldn't need too many passes to achieve an attempt on goal.....

I still don't think some people understand the 'ball retention' reasoning/philosophy at junior level.....it's not to win games but rather to develop better technical players who can then adapt to whatever system their club/country wants to play at senior level....

Simplistic example....but you get the point....

A Barcelona player has more chance of succeeding if playing for Stoke than a Stoke player playing with Barcelona....

[altius]

"I still don't think some people understand the 'ball retention' reasoning/philosophy at junior level.....it's not to win games but rather to develop better technical players who can then adapt to whatever system their club/country wants to play at senior level...."

Just consider the possibility that 'some' people do understand the ball retention philosophy at junior level but that they may also understand that in emphasising possession - playing out of the back - making the easy 10-15 yard sideways/backwards pass, players never learn that ball retention is a means to an end -a strike at goal - not and end in itself. In addition of course they are unlikely to develop the vision they need to play at the next level. Ask Osiek what kind of players he is looking for - someone out there may already know - if you do enlighten us.

Good to see some interest in this topic - I hope it flourishes.

[MegaBonus]

Just consider the possibility that 'some' people do understand the ball retention philosophy at junior level but that they may also understand that in emphasising possession - playing out of the back - making the easy 10-15 yard sideways/backwards pass, players never learn that ball retention is a means to an end -a strike at goal - not and end in itself.

hypothetical..... you are a senior coach and have before you a group of players.....what type would you rather have to work with?

1 - players who understand that possession is just a means to an end but dont have the technical ability to execute...

or

2 - players who dont understand but are technically gifted???

[Toffeefox]

I like this question but as a Senior coach option 1 every time. Technique is something that can be constantly worked on and improved and as it improves you can adapt your team formation and style to become more competitive.
My experience as a player and coach / manager with adults is that behaviours and understanding are incredibly difficult to change which is why you often see many gifted young footballers who haven't been coached and developed correctly playing low grades of soccer as adults because they don't understand the senior game.


As a junior coach option 1). or 2). wouldn't bother me, time to develop understanding and technique.

[MegaBonus]

Well lets hope your employers have patience and understanding...

Give me technically sound players and they can play as the coach wishes......with less technically developed players, the coach is restricted with what he can do.....

Case study= Adelaide united

We've already have an insight into how the new coach wants the team to play....considering that the squad roster is almost full (because of existing contracts), is he likely (as of next year) to turn over the squad in pursuit of 'technical' players or will he try to implement his playing philosophy with the current squad?

[altius]

Jamie Carragher, who played over seven hundred games for Liverpool FC and thirty eight for England, captures the essence of this dilemma when he stresses that English soccer can revive itself only by identifying and enforcing what it is good at rather than being a third rate copy of someone else.
“ We all want to play it the Barcelona way but we cant, he says “People are obsessed about copying them. Even when they are in a bit of trouble you see goalkeepers wanting to show what good footballers they are, playing it from the back. What did Sir Alex Ferguson say about David DeGea’s mistake against Benfica the other night? That he should have kicked the ball into the stand. He is right but Barcelona have changed how people think about the game.

I love watching them play but they had the same philosophy during the days when they struggling to qualify for the Champions League and we were beating them in the UEFA Cup. They just have players who are a lot better now. When I started everyone was saying the same about Ajax. They were the blueprint for our academy. Then everyone was talking about Clairefontaine in France. Now it’s all about Le Maisa.

We always want to do what everyone else has already done. It is right to study them but there is no point in copying them. What we have to develop is our own identity. I read what Xabi Alonso said about tackling being perceived as a quality here, but that’s part of our culture. Maybe it mattered more 20 years ago but you cant just change the culture of a country. Every father who watches his son wants him to be a great footballer but they are also intent on making sure that he is not a coward on the pitch. That’s the mentality that Wenger explained very well when he said the English are always going to war.

Its not about just about being able to tackle and nothing else – you want players with the full package. If you can develop the technique, its competitiveness that can give us an edge over other countries.

Don’t give me this “Its all the Fancy Dan foreign coaches’ who play all great football either. Of all the managers I’ve had at Liverpool, the ones who wanted to play the most football were a fella from Bootle, Roy Evan and a fella from Glasgow, Kenny Dalgleish. I am not saying the others wanted long ball football but they were more tactical and that meant doing anything to win, even if it meant hitting it early to the big man up front, Emile Heskey, who Gerard Houlier (A French coach) bought, or Peter Crouch, signed by Rafa Benitez (a Spaniard).” An article in the the Mebourne Sunday Age of the 27th of November 2011,

Readers may find this interesting.

[Željko Jurin]

You are comparing senior football to youth development again

Why not compare Ajax and Barca Academy to English clubs academies .... Who produces more talent and more technical players , of which are playing at professional clubs ?

We're in Australia, we have to 'try' and do what the best clubs do

[Con M]

You are comparing senior football to youth development again

Why not compare Ajax and Barca Academy to English clubs academies .... Who produces more talent and more technical players , of which are playing at professional clubs ?

We're in Australia, we have to 'try' and do what the best clubs do

+1

[altius]

What I am arguing is that your approach at junior level should reflect your understanding of the game - because it is the same game at every level. Same rules, same pitch, same goals - except for the littlies of course but even on smaller pitches, smaller teams etc the principles of play remain the same. If you believe the game is about possession that is what you will teach but if you believe that possession is a means to an end - penetrating the defence - then you may teach differently. This is important because there is some evidence that in sport, when players are under pressure, they tend to revert to what they learned first first.

Just some thoughts!

[ikon]

i teach sexyfootball...its possession, penetrating and the aim is to score more than the opposition...

[Željko Jurin]

If you believe the game is about possession that is what you will teach but if you believe that possession is a means to an end - penetrating the defence - then you may teach differently.

Are you saying that both cant be taught, and both can't be executed in a game ?

[altius]

No not questioning that at all. You can teach just about anything to anybody if you structure the right learning situations. Just wondering if an emphasis on possession with youngsters will lead to a generation of players able to make safe 10/15 metres passes but without the vision needed to see through or behind defences and without an understanding of the fact that if you want to score goals you have to be prepared to risk the ball.

[Željko Jurin]

Possession in tight areas, you need technique, vision and intelligence .... as they get older, more tactics come into play, hence game situations and awareness are taught

I found this recently on "youth development" in sport

I thought it was a great analogy, and can be looked at in different ways for different things, but in my eyes, most importantly 'technique' .... how do we teach and develop technique ?
http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=Lm6GBVid ... r_embedded

[ikon]

Possession in tight areas, you need technique, vision and intelligence .... as they get older, more tactics come into play, hence game situations and awareness are taught

I found this recently on "youth development" in sport

I thought it was a great analogy, and can be looked at in different ways for different things, but in my eyes, most importantly 'technique' .... how do we teach and develop technique ?
http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=Lm6GBVid ... r_embedded

Repetition Repetition Repetition....brings technique.

I think you will find most of the barca, style/possesion/penetration focuses on interchange play around the 18 yard box...wing play is introduced at early ages to encourage width of play and wingers but as they get older its how do we get in the opposition 18 yard box...this is where the 10-15 m passes come into play and the importance of the number 10 as the play maker. ..give as many players the chance to play the number 10 role.

the difference between good players and great players is when they are in a 1v1 situation ...and technique shines through.

great topic by the way

[Željko Jurin]

One of the best articles I've read for a long time, on how and what the Germans did to recover since 2000 ...... They also went and learnt from other countries who were doing 'things right' back then

http://m.guardian.co.uk/football/2013/m ... CMP=twt_gu

[Con M]

Very good points about balance. I'll be watching too and expect to admire some killer through balls by the Bayern midfield with Ribery & Robben then taking on the flank defenders. Munich is after redemption and won't let this one go.

But just back to technique, the youngsters have to master ball control and technique. Do they play enough scratch matches at school and after school? Or are they all just driven by parents & guardians to their club's evening practice and hope for the best? As an aside, why do some clubs actively discourage their kids from playing for their schools as well? FFSA clubs play Sunday mornings, schools on Saturday mornings - the extra exposure to the ball won't hurt them.

I'll always remember being inspired by George Best's mastery and dribbling skills. Those were honed as a youngster playing endless games on the wastegrounds of Belfast before he went across to Manchester.

On a far less humble scene, I remember a bunch of us as kids also honing our skills by playing endless scratch games after school at Kensington Gardens or the old Farmers Union wasteground at Kensington until it went dark. Marryatville Primary kids from all sorts of backgrounds - Anglo-Aussie, Greek, Estonian, Cypriot, Italian, German - all developed good ball control. The only school we couldn't match it with was the brilliant Flinders St Primary, full of immigrant kids who continuously played street soccer in the eastern part of the city.

[Željko Jurin]

Very interesting fact ......

Bayern were 2nd in whole of CL for total possession at 62% ... so what's this discussion about again ?

[The Kings Jesta]

Possession in tight areas, you need technique, vision and intelligence .... as they get older, more tactics come into play, hence game situations and awareness are taught

I found this recently on "youth development" in sport

I thought it was a great analogy, and can be looked at in different ways for different things, but in my eyes, most importantly 'technique' .... how do we teach and develop technique ?
http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=Lm6GBVid ... r_embedded

Repetition Repetition Repetition....brings technique.

I think you will find most of the barca, style/possesion/penetration focuses on interchange play around the 18 yard box...wing play is introduced at early ages to encourage width of play and wingers but as they get older its how do we get in the opposition 18 yard box...this is where the 10-15 m passes come into play and the importance of the number 10 as the play maker. ..give as many players the chance to play the number 10 role.

the difference between good players and great players is when they are in a 1v1 situation ...and technique shines through.

great topic by the way

Not trying to be a smart arsen, but who plays the #10 role at Barca?

Why play a number 10 and 2 holding players when you can have 1 holding player and 2 box to box players... 4-2-3-1 normally has 5 players in the attack (1 fulback/ Att Mid / 2 Wingers / 1 Striker), the 4-3-3 should have 6 players in the attack (1 FB / 2 CM / 2 WG / 1 ST)...

on a side note, and kind of on and off topic: does anyone spend real quality time teaching the technique of defending. I'm not talking about defensive shape, I'm referencing the art of tackling / heading from behind a striker / body shape when closing down etc...?

[Željko Jurin]

They play with 2 #10s, Iniesta and Xavi with Busquets the holding midfielder

When Valdes has the ball, either Xavi or Iniesta drop to give him another option when they play it out

[altius]

But is that not all irrelevant now?? We have just seen the two best teams is Europe - certainly the results in the semis would seem to suggest this. But what was the emphasis -the basic principles of defence -continued pressure on the ball - cover for the pressuring players - only giving attackers the width of the pitch times 30/35 metres to play in - not allowing the opposition simply to 'play it out of the back'. Of course the game was decided by great goalkeeping -on both sides - and an offside goal - but where did the 'winning' goal come from -a ball down the gut - a piece of luck and an opportunistic pick up and score. No tiki taka here!!!

Just some thoughts from an outsider.

[Željko Jurin]

So we teach kids to hope for 'a bit of luck' in a game ?

First goal was not offside, unless you are saying Robben was ?

[MegaBonus]

altius

but where did the 'winning' goal come from -a ball down the gut - a piece of luck and an opportunistic pick up and score. No tiki taka here!!!

theres nothing wrong with a long ball forward that goes 'to feet' which it did....there was also some brilliant 'improvisation' (the back heel nutmeg) involved in the interchange between the 2 players....no luck here....

can you put the issue to rest.....research the winners of all contemporary major international tournaments and reflect on their footballing philosophy...(bar Greece at Euro 2004.....a wonderful achievement where all the stars and planets were aligned)

[altius]

I suspect the 'passer' had no idea whose feet the ball was going to arrive at!! Take a look at it again - perhaps you are right - perhaps what I saw as a lucky touch was indeed a skilful nutmeg - if it is I will apologise! However I just think the 'passer' just put the ball into a dangerous area for the defenders - which is never a bad idea - and then the attackers were LUCKY/QUICK enough to get to the ball first and score. But I am ready to see the error of my ways.

I just have feeling that too many folk have jumped on the Barca bandwagon without thinking about the fundamental tactics of football. Yes indeed take a look at the performances at major championships but don't reject what the Norwegians, Danes and Jackie Charlton did with a more pragmatic approach to this game when they had limited resources at their disposal. Unless I am mistaken the objective of any team when it goes onto the pitch should be to win the game. So what if your opponents have a goalkeeper who doesn't handle high balls well, or have dodgy central defenders - so do we ignore that and 'play on the deck'?

[# 9]

Possession in tight areas, you need technique, vision and intelligence .... as they get older, more tactics come into play, hence game situations and awareness are taught

I found this recently on "youth development" in sport

I thought it was a great analogy, and can be looked at in different ways for different things, but in my eyes, most importantly 'technique' .... how do we teach and develop technique ?
http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=Lm6GBVid ... r_embedded

Repetition Repetition Repetition....brings technique.

I think you will find most of the barca, style/possesion/penetration focuses on interchange play around the 18 yard box...wing play is introduced at early ages to encourage width of play and wingers but as they get older its how do we get in the opposition 18 yard box...this is where the 10-15 m passes come into play and the importance of the number 10 as the play maker. ..give as many players the chance to play the number 10 role.

the difference between good players and great players is when they are in a 1v1 situation ...and technique shines through.

great topic by the way

Exactly,quite well put.

For most of the children overseas, Football is a lifestyle, and they are almost forever kicking a ball whenever they can whereas here, growing up consists of several things and a plethora of choices. Kids who show as active interest need to be nurtured, the more time with the ball the better, constant training while having fun will develop the children of today into better footballers. The only dilemma with this is alot of (left-wing minded/anti-risk adults) see this as living through your child or bullying them into sport or not letting them live. (I have seen it all too much, time and time again with alot of parents who come to junior training sessions and complain about timings etc.

The number 10 role is a good buildig block for children to develop neccesary skills, i.e. vision and controlled touch through practise and time.

I honestly believe more time needs to be spent with Kids/Youth/Teens from a direct coaching level in order to get more out of them.

[Brian the Postman]

For example Brazil and Germany scored only 33% and 25% of their goals from 6 passes or more

Useless stat proving nothing.....eg:

What if Germany/Brazil won the ball close to their oppositions goal? You wouldn't need too many passes to achieve an attempt on goal.....

I still don't think some people understand the 'ball retention' reasoning/philosophy at junior level.....it's not to win games but rather to develop better technical players who can then adapt to whatever system their club/country wants to play at senior level....

Simplistic example....but you get the point....

A Barcelona player has more chance of succeeding if playing for Stoke than a Stoke player playing with Barcelona....

Another thing to consider in those stats is goals from set pieces ie there are 0 passes for a penalty and scoring off a corner only takes one pass (the corner).

[The Kings Jesta]

They play with 2 #10s, Iniesta and Xavi with Busquets the holding midfielder

When Valdes has the ball, either Xavi or Iniesta drop to give him another option when they play it out

that's not really a #10 though. that's 2 Center Mids rather than 2 Attacking Mids.

Here's a question re: midfielders that should sum up most peoples views

in their prime would you rather have 2 Steven Gerrard or two Iniesta/Xavi? running the midfield

[Brian the Postman]

They play with 2 #10s, Iniesta and Xavi with Busquets the holding midfielder

When Valdes has the ball, either Xavi or Iniesta drop to give him another option when they play it out

that's not really a #10 though. that's 2 Center Mids rather than 2 Attacking Mids.

Here's a question re: midfielders that should sum up most peoples views

in their prime would you rather have 2 Steven Gerrard or two Iniesta/Xavi? running the midfield

You couldn't play 2 gerrards (playing style in his prime) at the same time as it would be a tactical disaster at international level, note the Lampard Gerrard combination, they would just get in each others way.