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 Post subject: Re: Has the standard of U18's gone backwards
PostPosted: Thu May 14, 2015 11:31 pm 
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Boot Polisher
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my guess would be matty 2323


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 Post subject: Re: Has the standard of U18's gone backwards
PostPosted: Sun May 17, 2015 3:01 am 
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bradman wrote:
Maybe its harder to get into a premier league reserve grade side than it is a middle of the road state league 1st team. Maybe one day your club have the chance to prove me wrong but I doubt it as u looked assured of State League again next season just depends which 1.

Maybe Premier League clubs have a different philosophy (god forbid) It might be Why the rush or Where's the fire approach. If you are going to throw stones at the way other clubs decide to develop their players make sure you don't live in a glass house or if you do get dressed in the basement.

Look after your back yard as ours is looking fantastic


Yeah, Elvis Kamsoba has really struggled with the transition from a middle of the road state league 1st team to a PL side.... clown. As has the likes of Bruce Kamau, Nathan Konstandopoulos etc.

I was discussing the thread topic. It wasn't a swipe at anybody.

Our back yard is looking superb. 11 first team players now with 5+ seasons at the club as a junior (12s to 18s) is a statistic i think any club would be proud of.


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 Post subject: Re: Has the standard of U18's gone backwards
PostPosted: Sun May 17, 2015 3:31 pm 
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matty2323 wrote:
bradman wrote:
Maybe its harder to get into a premier league reserve grade side than it is a middle of the road state league 1st team. Maybe one day your club have the chance to prove me wrong but I doubt it as u looked assured of State League again next season just depends which 1.

Maybe Premier League clubs have a different philosophy (god forbid) It might be Why the rush or Where's the fire approach. If you are going to throw stones at the way other clubs decide to develop their players make sure you don't live in a glass house or if you do get dressed in the basement.

Look after your back yard as ours is looking fantastic


Yeah, Elvis Kamsoba has really struggled with the transition from a middle of the road state league 1st team to a PL side.... clown. As has the likes of Bruce Kamau, Nathan Konstandopoulos etc.

I was discussing the thread topic. It wasn't a swipe at anybody.

Our back yard is looking superb. 11 first team players now with 5+ seasons at the club as a junior (12s to 18s) is a statistic i think any club would be proud of.


Well done. That's great!!!
Something the club should be proud of.
But I beleive there was 19's when they were coming through The ranks. And that. Mop was quite good. Today's 18's & ressies is quite poor. Bar some of the top club ressies.


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 Post subject: Re: Has the standard of U18's gone backwards
PostPosted: Sun May 24, 2015 11:45 pm 
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The worst coach at under 18's level quit on Saturday...White City's 18's coach that is.

He quit 14 rounds too late. Ruined a very good side and then the gutless potato that he is decided to quit.

Didn't even have the courage to stick it out with his team...the boys he picked to coach for the year. Big tick for being loyal to your players.

Good riddance you hack.

Hope no other players have the misfortune to be coached by this inept person.


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 Post subject: Re: Has the standard of U18's gone backwards
PostPosted: Mon May 25, 2015 1:49 am 
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Boot Polisher
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matty2323 wrote:
bradman wrote:
Maybe its harder to get into a premier league reserve grade side than it is a middle of the road state league 1st team. Maybe one day your club have the chance to prove me wrong but I doubt it as u looked assured of State League again next season just depends which 1.

Maybe Premier League clubs have a different philosophy (god forbid) It might be Why the rush or Where's the fire approach. If you are going to throw stones at the way other clubs decide to develop their players make sure you don't live in a glass house or if you do get dressed in the basement.

Look after your back yard as ours is looking fantastic


Yeah, Elvis Kamsoba has really struggled with the transition from a middle of the road state league 1st team to a PL side.... clown. As has the likes of Bruce Kamau, Nathan Konstandopoulos etc.

I was discussing the thread topic. It wasn't a swipe at anybody.

Our back yard is looking superb. 11 first team players now with 5+ seasons at the club as a junior (12s to 18s) is a statistic i think any club would be proud of.


Elvis is a freak. I don't know how his attitude is but I hope he cracks the A League.


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 Post subject: Re: Has the standard of U18's gone backwards
PostPosted: Mon May 25, 2015 7:39 pm 
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Shelby wrote:
The worst coach at under 18's level quit on Saturday...White City's 18's coach that is.

He quit 14 rounds too late. Ruined a very good side and then the gutless potato that he is decided to quit.

Didn't even have the courage to stick it out with his team...the boys he picked to coach for the year. Big tick for being loyal to your players.

Good riddance you hack.

Hope no other players have the misfortune to be coached by this inept person.


Will Hollywood take over?


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 Post subject: Re: Has the standard of U18's gone backwards
PostPosted: Mon May 25, 2015 10:10 pm 
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well said he was an absolute a-hole, no people skills at all.


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 Post subject: Re: Has the standard of U18's gone backwards
PostPosted: Wed May 27, 2015 9:54 am 
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snoopdog wrote:
well said he was an absolute a-hole, no people skills at all.


Just out of interest - how does someone like that get appointed in the first place? Should those that appoint someone like that not be held accountable also?


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 Post subject: Re: Has the standard of U18's gone backwards
PostPosted: Wed May 27, 2015 11:11 am 
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Old Redback wrote:
snoopdog wrote:
well said he was an absolute a-hole, no people skills at all.


Just out of interest - how does someone like that get appointed in the first place? Should those that appoint someone like that not be held accountable also?



He would of dribbled some bollocks, that he was a top player coach in Serbia, and White City bought his lies.


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 Post subject: Re: Has the standard of U18's gone backwards
PostPosted: Wed May 27, 2015 2:59 pm 
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Ibelieve wrote:
matty2323 wrote:
bradman wrote:
Maybe its harder to get into a premier league reserve grade side than it is a middle of the road state league 1st team. Maybe one day your club have the chance to prove me wrong but I doubt it as u looked assured of State League again next season just depends which 1.

Maybe Premier League clubs have a different philosophy (god forbid) It might be Why the rush or Where's the fire approach. If you are going to throw stones at the way other clubs decide to develop their players make sure you don't live in a glass house or if you do get dressed in the basement.

Look after your back yard as ours is looking fantastic


Yeah, Elvis Kamsoba has really struggled with the transition from a middle of the road state league 1st team to a PL side.... clown. As has the likes of Bruce Kamau, Nathan Konstandopoulos etc.

I was discussing the thread topic. It wasn't a swipe at anybody.

Our back yard is looking superb. 11 first team players now with 5+ seasons at the club as a junior (12s to 18s) is a statistic i think any club would be proud of.


Well done. That's great!!!
Something the club should be proud of.
But I beleive there was 19's when they were coming through The ranks. And that. Mop was quite good. Today's 18's & ressies is quite poor. Bar some of the top club ressies.


7 of those are under 18 years of age, so participated in U18 comp. Most went U15 to U18 to Reserves to First team.

I just saw another 14 year old made his debut for the Norwegian national team.. yet im considered nuts for suggesting kids of that age should be playing U18s - small minded mentality will forever hold back how we do things in Australia.


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 Post subject: Re: Has the standard of U18's gone backwards
PostPosted: Wed May 27, 2015 4:55 pm 
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Matty I think you're spot on suggesting we should be promoting youth to senior set ups early however, just to clarify, are you suggesting the U18's league be made of predominantly U14's?


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 Post subject: Re: Has the standard of U18's gone backwards
PostPosted: Wed May 27, 2015 7:19 pm 
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matty2323 wrote:

I just saw another 14 year old made his debut for the Norwegian national team.. yet im considered nuts for suggesting kids of that age should be playing U18s - small minded mentality will forever hold back how we do things in Australia.


No.

Your nuts for suggesting players aged between 17-18 should not be in an U18 squad, that an U18 squad should be made up of players aged between 14-16 years old. If players are deemed 'too old at 17-18' to be in an U18 squad, then change the name to U16 NPL.

You mentioned Messi a while back, because of his talent at a young age. I reckon that for every exceptional young player, there are also several exceptional older players The sad thing is that society is aging people faster than is necessary and become blind to older talent.

I'd love to see the FFA & FFSA stats on the percentage of players trained by them that went into professional football careers. In theory it should be 75%, because they took the youngest and most talented and put them into the highest level training and games available.

Stats anyone?

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 Post subject: Re: Has the standard of U18's gone backwards
PostPosted: Wed May 27, 2015 11:20 pm 
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http://news.bbc.co.uk/sportacademy/hi/s ... 345949.stm
http://www.nickhumph.com/2011/11/05/how ... e-bloomer/
http://www.momsteam.com/successful-pare ... advantages
http://www.footballfancast.com/football ... havin-toni
I THINK THESE ARTICLES SAY IT ALL


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 Post subject: Re: Has the standard of U18's gone backwards
PostPosted: Thu May 28, 2015 2:28 am 
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johnydep wrote:
matty2323 wrote:

I just saw another 14 year old made his debut for the Norwegian national team.. yet im considered nuts for suggesting kids of that age should be playing U18s - small minded mentality will forever hold back how we do things in Australia.


No.

Your nuts for suggesting players aged between 17-18 should not be in an U18 squad, that an U18 squad should be made up of players aged between 14-16 years old. If players are deemed 'too old at 17-18' to be in an U18 squad, then change the name to U16 NPL.

You mentioned Messi a while back, because of his talent at a young age. I reckon that for every exceptional young player, there are also several exceptional older players The sad thing is that society is aging people faster than is necessary and become blind to older talent.

I'd love to see the FFA & FFSA stats on the percentage of players trained by them that went into professional football careers. In theory it should be 75%, because they took the youngest and most talented and put them into the highest level training and games available.

Stats anyone?


Thats not what ive suggested at all. What im suggesting is that, in most cases, players follow the pathway from U16/U17 to U18 - thus allowing them only 1 (possibly 2) seasons to make the cut at reserve level. I believe there should be a balance. By promoting your early developers at age 14/15 you're ensuring they continue to develop at an excelled rate. They might not even get much game time with the u18s, and in fact still play Sundays in 16s/17s.

Im for "exposing" kids to this higher standard at an earlier age. Im not suggesting they have to "play". But most clubs are narrow minded and have players only training with the teams they're selected in. So, if an early developer is selected in the u15s he's an u15 player. Trains with that squad, plays with that squad. I'd much rather see that player participating in u18 training and his own training, ensuring he continues to develop at an excelled rate while also bringing those standards back to his own team with the slow developers.

How often do you see a team packed with 16 x 17 year olds? i have no issue with there being 6-7 core players age 17 in the u18s (who are in their 2nd year of u18s) but then the edges are filled with 16 year olds. And the elite 15 year olds are on the bend gaining 20 minutes exposure here and there.

They do it best overseas:

U12 (9 x U11s | 9 x U12s)
U14 (9 x U13s | 9 x U14s)

players spend two seasons in an age bracket, being the younger and then the older. They have two teams per age group. A big team and a small team - this is basically based on current physical development. The elite can get pushed up in older groups.

How many players have we produced here that have made it to the elite level? I spend sundays looking at our SSGs. I reckon our kids under 11-12 years old are just as good as any in the world. But what happens between 12 to 18? poor coaching, poor systems, poor programs.. Obviously what we're currently doing isnt working, so we need to change our approach. Id rather blood a kid at 14 and give him the game time that i could possibly be giving a 17 year old who "might develop" and "might make reserves" next season.


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 Post subject: Re: Has the standard of U18's gone backwards
PostPosted: Thu May 28, 2015 9:20 am 
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matty2323 wrote:
Thats not what ive suggested at all.
johnydep wrote:
So the U18's players should be 15-16 years old? Why not call the league U17's? Oh, because then clubs would be playing 16-17 year olds and that wouldn't be right. :roll:
matty2323 wrote:
Yes, they should be 15-16 years old. And they should be the BEST 15-16 year olds at the club.

matty2323 wrote:
How often do you see a team packed with 16 x 17 year olds? i have no issue with there being 6-7 core players age 17 in the u18s (who are in their 2nd year of u18s) but then the edges are filled with 16 year olds. And the elite 15 year olds are on the bend gaining 20 minutes exposure here and there.

They do it best overseas:

U12 (9 x U11s | 9 x U12s)
U14 (9 x U13s | 9 x U14s)

players spend two seasons in an age bracket, being the younger and then the older. They have two teams per age group. A big team and a small team - this is basically based on current physical development. The elite can get pushed up in older groups.

How many players have we produced here that have made it to the elite level? I spend sundays looking at our SSGs. I reckon our kids under 11-12 years old are just as good as any in the world. But what happens between 12 to 18? poor coaching, poor systems, poor programs.. Obviously what we're currently doing isnt working, so we need to change our approach. Id rather blood a kid at 14 and give him the game time that i could possibly be giving a 17 year old who "might develop" and "might make reserves" next season.

Theory, ideas, facts & proof need to be included in a plan. Your idea/theory may be the correct one. I'd like to see the facts and proof before changing.

What club have you helped to implement your theory and what has been the outcome? Year started, numbers now playing at the highest level, etc.

I'm constantly reminded of the similar systems that have already used your system - State squads, Development Squads, SASI, AIS, NTC. I've asked, over several years, the feds to show clubs the percentage rate of players that have achieved the aimed goal of playing at the highest level - National, overseas and for the country (eg. players born 19.. playing local 25%, National 25%, overseas 25%, not playing 25%). I'm yet to see any facts and figures.

So until we see proof; our club will continue to give a position to a player who earns that spot, first and foremost because of their talent, skill, attitude, and so forth. Not because of their age.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=edxnBHS ... uscomments

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 Post subject: Re: Has the standard of U18's gone backwards
PostPosted: Thu May 28, 2015 9:46 am 
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Quote:
...So until we see proof; our club will continue to give a position to a player who earns that spot, first and foremost because of their talent, skill, attitude, and so forth. Not because of their age.
.

So how does that work when a lot of clubs don't even offer Trials for reserves level players?

The issue about age also happens at reserve level, one club (that did conduct trials at reserve level) said openly that if you were over 20 dont even bother trialling. And that doesn't account for the number of clubs that also do this but not in such an open way.


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 Post subject: Re: Has the standard of U18's gone backwards
PostPosted: Thu May 28, 2015 9:58 am 
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on-side wrote:
Quote:
...So until we see proof; our club will continue to give a position to a player who earns that spot, first and foremost because of their talent, skill, attitude, and so forth. Not because of their age.
.

So how does that work when a lot of clubs don't even offer Trials for reserves level players?

The issue about age also happens at reserve level, one club (that did conduct trials at reserve level) said openly that if you were over 20 dont even bother trialling. And that doesn't account for the number of clubs that also do this but not in such an open way.


Each to their own. Club's choose a system that they believe will achieve the best outcome. The ones that work will succeed, while the others will either struggle or fail. That's the great thing about promotion and relegation.

As for trials; one of the purposes of conducting trials is to find players to fill a position/s that can not be filled internally. If a clubs junior system is working, a trial should not be necessary because the clubs skilled junior players should be rewarded and will be brought up to fill positions. A bit like what matty2323 is trying to say, but more so to fill a position rather than the age only reason.

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 Post subject: Re: Has the standard of U18's gone backwards
PostPosted: Thu May 28, 2015 11:23 am 
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Matty, I would be surprised if you have any 14 year olds in your U18 squad .. if so you shoulder check their birth certificates ..

Anyway no real issue with this if the player is exceptional but should be an exception to the rule.

IMO top tier U15's is generally still a good level for this age group, U16's and 17's from what I have seen is generally a lesser standard to the U15 comp .. this is also the opinion of many others.

The standout or better U15s are best served to go to U18s ie for this years U15's 2000 born (turning 15 this year) then 18s would be best next year when turning 16 next year.

I have seen a couple of Playflord JPL teams in the top tier and tbh have not seen too many standout players ie in your 15A (including those that may have come down from 16 to reserves to play in your Manu cup squad) that would be able to command a regular spot in a lot of U18 teams so I would suggest you don't have too many 14 year olds in your 18's and up.

Your club may be different in that you don't have the junior talent depth of some other clubs and so more boys may be pushed up but a lot of clubs have plenty of good young talent in place in their 18s etc and so sometimes even exceptionally talented youngsters need to bide their time.


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 Post subject: Re: Has the standard of U18's gone backwards
PostPosted: Thu May 28, 2015 1:48 pm 
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Quote:
As for trials; one of the purposes of conducting trials is to find players to fill a position/s that can not be filled internally. If a clubs junior system is working, a trial should not be necessary because the clubs skilled junior players should be rewarded and will be brought up to fill positions. A bit like what matty2323 is trying to say, but more so to fill a position rather than the age only reason.


So are you saying that a player needs to get into Premier League club as a junior and stay there .... otherwise you have no hope in hell of ever breaking into a reserves side in such a club?


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 Post subject: Re: Has the standard of U18's gone backwards
PostPosted: Thu May 28, 2015 2:29 pm 
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^^^^^^^ What??? :?

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 Post subject: Re: Has the standard of U18's gone backwards
PostPosted: Thu May 28, 2015 2:45 pm 
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a trial should not be necessary because the clubs skilled junior players should be rewarded and will be brought up to fill positions.


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 Post subject: Re: Has the standard of U18's gone backwards
PostPosted: Thu May 28, 2015 4:55 pm 
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johnydep wrote:
matty2323 wrote:
Thats not what ive suggested at all.
johnydep wrote:
So the U18's players should be 15-16 years old? Why not call the league U17's? Oh, because then clubs would be playing 16-17 year olds and that wouldn't be right. :roll:
matty2323 wrote:
Yes, they should be 15-16 years old. And they should be the BEST 15-16 year olds at the club.

matty2323 wrote:
How often do you see a team packed with 16 x 17 year olds? i have no issue with there being 6-7 core players age 17 in the u18s (who are in their 2nd year of u18s) but then the edges are filled with 16 year olds. And the elite 15 year olds are on the bend gaining 20 minutes exposure here and there.

They do it best overseas:

U12 (9 x U11s | 9 x U12s)
U14 (9 x U13s | 9 x U14s)

players spend two seasons in an age bracket, being the younger and then the older. They have two teams per age group. A big team and a small team - this is basically based on current physical development. The elite can get pushed up in older groups.

How many players have we produced here that have made it to the elite level? I spend sundays looking at our SSGs. I reckon our kids under 11-12 years old are just as good as any in the world. But what happens between 12 to 18? poor coaching, poor systems, poor programs.. Obviously what we're currently doing isnt working, so we need to change our approach. Id rather blood a kid at 14 and give him the game time that i could possibly be giving a 17 year old who "might develop" and "might make reserves" next season.

Theory, ideas, facts & proof need to be included in a plan. Your idea/theory may be the correct one. I'd like to see the facts and proof before changing.

What club have you helped to implement your theory and what has been the outcome? Year started, numbers now playing at the highest level, etc.

I'm constantly reminded of the similar systems that have already used your system - State squads, Development Squads, SASI, AIS, NTC. I've asked, over several years, the feds to show clubs the percentage rate of players that have achieved the aimed goal of playing at the highest level - National, overseas and for the country (eg. players born 19.. playing local 25%, National 25%, overseas 25%, not playing 25%). I'm yet to see any facts and figures.

So until we see proof; our club will continue to give a position to a player who earns that spot, first and foremost because of their talent, skill, attitude, and so forth. Not because of their age.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=edxnBHS ... uscomments


Yes, i was stating they should start at 15/16 but have 2-3 years in the u18s, rather than going U17 to U18 etc. For example - 8 x 17s (who have been in u18s since 15/16) 4 x 16s and 4 x 15s? Does that make more sense? That way you always have a steady stream of development? rathern than having 18 new players every season in you u18s.

I haven't been able to implement much. Im trying to change things at Playford but unfortunately face the difficulties most clubs face - lack of quality coaches and limited funding. My ideas are theories, based on material ive read. Im looking at different ways to do things because i genuinely feel the current system is inept. Im looking to bridge the gap between the club and school systems to ensure players are getting 4+ quality sessions per week and 1-2 games, increasing their access to football sessions. I know other people who share these views and im trying to work with them and bring their ideas on board aswell.

I personally believe we have something serious wrong in this country at 12-18 (including elite development programs). Do i have all the solutions? no. But i feel any suggestion always gets shot down because its not how we've always done things. I can give you the numbers from my 2002 SASI squad if you like? Unfortunately i dont remember every player:

Jeremy Cristarella (NPL)
Matthew Deegan (AIS & NPL senior)
Oliver Totani (NPL senior)
Sam Gounder (AIS & NPL senior)
John DeFrancesco (NPL senior)
Shane Tobias (AIS & A-League & NPL senior)
Matthew Muscroft (NPL senior)
Toshiba Yabbio (unsure)
Tony Hatzis (Overseas (Greece) & NPL senior)
Michael Matricciani (A-League & China & NPL senior)
Matthew Gaston (England & NPL senior) :D
Nicholas Crossley (A-League & NPL senior)
Josh Woods (AIS)
Michael Marrone (AIS & A-League)
David Thornton (NPL senior)
Michael Daloisio (NPL Senior)
Michael Ball (Police Officer)
Anthony Ivanov (unsure)
Michele Lastella (NPL senior)
Yianni Sarris (NPL senior)
Keegan Nash (NPL senior)
Ben Wojkow (unsure)
Julian Torrensan (NPL senior)

there were a few that represented Australia at youth level aswell. I think a few more would have went on to represent A-League sides but it was the beginning of the league and only 2 youth spots were available and no youth league.


Last edited by matty2323 on Thu May 28, 2015 5:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Has the standard of U18's gone backwards
PostPosted: Thu May 28, 2015 5:11 pm 
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Sacred Noodle wrote:
Matty, I would be surprised if you have any 14 year olds in your U18 squad .. if so you shoulder check their birth certificates ..

Anyway no real issue with this if the player is exceptional but should be an exception to the rule.

IMO top tier U15's is generally still a good level for this age group, U16's and 17's from what I have seen is generally a lesser standard to the U15 comp .. this is also the opinion of many others.

The standout or better U15s are best served to go to U18s ie for this years U15's 2000 born (turning 15 this year) then 18s would be best next year when turning 16 next year.

I have seen a couple of Playflord JPL teams in the top tier and tbh have not seen too many standout players ie in your 15A (including those that may have come down from 16 to reserves to play in your Manu cup squad) that would be able to command a regular spot in a lot of U18 teams so I would suggest you don't have too many 14 year olds in your 18's and up.

Your club may be different in that you don't have the junior talent depth of some other clubs and so more boys may be pushed up but a lot of clubs have plenty of good young talent in place in their 18s etc and so sometimes even exceptionally talented youngsters need to bide their time.


I agree, up until the U15 league the standard of the A division is very very good - Individually anyway, i think the teams play a very ordinary brand of football that destroys the players ability to develop, but again, personal opinion. haha.

Yes, thats a fair call. Id say we have 1 in the U14s who could take the step, and experienced game time with the U18s and reserves in preseason. Theres 2 in our 15s and the rest have already been pushed up. I like to refer to our footballing system as the pyramid. As a junior theres lots of teams, but the older you get, and the higher you go, it get real narrow and you need to stand out. Im not suggesting Playford has all this talent and we're pushing kids forward through choice.. we do it more so out of necessity and kids benefit from the exposure. The likes of Pritchard and Kamsoba were exposed to senior football at 16 and by 18 were able to establish themselves as senior players in NPL PL clubs. Im trying to look at ways how we can turn 3-4 every year into 8-9, possibly 10-12.

I coached the U15 (2012) team at playford (my 2nd year in charge with Des Huddy) and from those 16 players, 13 have made senior debuts, 2 no longer play and 1 is at Melbourne Victory. 7 are permanent members of the senior squad. I handed them over at u15s and basically said they need to go to U18s (possibly still 19s then) and 5-6 (slow developers) stayed behind in the 16s. The club listened and it's paid dividends. Obviously there was a lack of talent ahead of them, but i feel this sort of approach can be adapted if clubs become more holistic in their approach to exposing kids at a younger age.

I know it sounds ageist, but i think we do have to consider age in junior development while we only have limited spaces at the top of the pyramid. Its why im for a 2nd U18 comp (or another senior team - possible U18, U21, Reserves and Seniors) to allow the slow developers that chance to continue to progress. People give me examples of players who developed late and became elite, but they play in countries where the levels of football and the standards run much deeper than we have here in Australia (and especially SA)


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 Post subject: Re: Has the standard of U18's gone backwards
PostPosted: Sun May 31, 2015 12:54 am 
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matty2323 wrote:
Sacred Noodle wrote:
Matty, I would be surprised if you have any 14 year olds in your U18 squad .. if so you shoulder check their birth certificates ..

Anyway no real issue with this if the player is exceptional but should be an exception to the rule.

IMO top tier U15's is generally still a good level for this age group, U16's and 17's from what I have seen is generally a lesser standard to the U15 comp .. this is also the opinion of many others.

The standout or better U15s are best served to go to U18s ie for this years U15's 2000 born (turning 15 this year) then 18s would be best next year when turning 16 next year.

I have seen a couple of Playflord JPL teams in the top tier and tbh have not seen too many standout players ie in your 15A (including those that may have come down from 16 to reserves to play in your Manu cup squad) that would be able to command a regular spot in a lot of U18 teams so I would suggest you don't have too many 14 year olds in your 18's and up.

Your club may be different in that you don't have the junior talent depth of some other clubs and so more boys may be pushed up but a lot of clubs have plenty of good young talent in place in their 18s etc and so sometimes even exceptionally talented youngsters need to bide their time.


I agree, up until the U15 league the standard of the A division is very very good - Individually anyway, i think the teams play a very ordinary brand of football that destroys the players ability to develop, but again, personal opinion. haha.

Yes, thats a fair call. Id say we have 1 in the U14s who could take the step, and experienced game time with the U18s and reserves in preseason. Theres 2 in our 15s and the rest have already been pushed up. I like to refer to our footballing system as the pyramid. As a junior theres lots of teams, but the older you get, and the higher you go, it get real narrow and you need to stand out. Im not suggesting Playford has all this talent and we're pushing kids forward through choice.. we do it more so out of necessity and kids benefit from the exposure. The likes of Pritchard and Kamsoba were exposed to senior football at 16 and by 18 were able to establish themselves as senior players in NPL PL clubs. Im trying to look at ways how we can turn 3-4 every year into 8-9, possibly 10-12.

I coached the U15 (2012) team at playford (my 2nd year in charge with Des Huddy) and from those 16 players, 13 have made senior debuts, 2 no longer play and 1 is at Melbourne Victory. 7 are permanent members of the senior squad. I handed them over at u15s and basically said they need to go to U18s (possibly still 19s then) and 5-6 (slow developers) stayed behind in the 16s. The club listened and it's paid dividends. Obviously there was a lack of talent ahead of them, but i feel this sort of approach can be adapted if clubs become more holistic in their approach to exposing kids at a younger age.

I know it sounds ageist, but i think we do have to consider age in junior development while we only have limited spaces at the top of the pyramid. Its why im for a 2nd U18 comp (or another senior team - possible U18, U21, Reserves and Seniors) to allow the slow developers that chance to continue to progress. People give me examples of players who developed late and became elite, but they play in countries where the levels of football and the standards run much deeper than we have here in Australia (and especially SA)


if you believe in your system why get players in from other clubs and not promote from within or is it you just prefer to bring back your old favorites, where's the club development you want :?:


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 Post subject: Re: Has the standard of U18's gone backwards
PostPosted: Wed Jun 03, 2015 1:38 pm 
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matty2323 wrote:
johnydep wrote:
matty2323 wrote:
Thats not what ive suggested at all.
johnydep wrote:
So the U18's players should be 15-16 years old? Why not call the league U17's? Oh, because then clubs would be playing 16-17 year olds and that wouldn't be right. :roll:
matty2323 wrote:
Yes, they should be 15-16 years old. And they should be the BEST 15-16 year olds at the club.

matty2323 wrote:
How often do you see a team packed with 16 x 17 year olds? i have no issue with there being 6-7 core players age 17 in the u18s (who are in their 2nd year of u18s) but then the edges are filled with 16 year olds. And the elite 15 year olds are on the bend gaining 20 minutes exposure here and there.

They do it best overseas:

U12 (9 x U11s | 9 x U12s)
U14 (9 x U13s | 9 x U14s)

players spend two seasons in an age bracket, being the younger and then the older. They have two teams per age group. A big team and a small team - this is basically based on current physical development. The elite can get pushed up in older groups.

How many players have we produced here that have made it to the elite level? I spend sundays looking at our SSGs. I reckon our kids under 11-12 years old are just as good as any in the world. But what happens between 12 to 18? poor coaching, poor systems, poor programs.. Obviously what we're currently doing isnt working, so we need to change our approach. Id rather blood a kid at 14 and give him the game time that i could possibly be giving a 17 year old who "might develop" and "might make reserves" next season.

Theory, ideas, facts & proof need to be included in a plan. Your idea/theory may be the correct one. I'd like to see the facts and proof before changing.

What club have you helped to implement your theory and what has been the outcome? Year started, numbers now playing at the highest level, etc.

I'm constantly reminded of the similar systems that have already used your system - State squads, Development Squads, SASI, AIS, NTC. I've asked, over several years, the feds to show clubs the percentage rate of players that have achieved the aimed goal of playing at the highest level - National, overseas and for the country (eg. players born 19.. playing local 25%, National 25%, overseas 25%, not playing 25%). I'm yet to see any facts and figures.

So until we see proof; our club will continue to give a position to a player who earns that spot, first and foremost because of their talent, skill, attitude, and so forth. Not because of their age.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=edxnBHS ... uscomments


Yes, i was stating they should start at 15/16 but have 2-3 years in the u18s, rather than going U17 to U18 etc. For example - 8 x 17s (who have been in u18s since 15/16) 4 x 16s and 4 x 15s? Does that make more sense? That way you always have a steady stream of development? rathern than having 18 new players every season in you u18s.

I haven't been able to implement much. Im trying to change things at Playford but unfortunately face the difficulties most clubs face - lack of quality coaches and limited funding. My ideas are theories, based on material ive read. Im looking at different ways to do things because i genuinely feel the current system is inept. Im looking to bridge the gap between the club and school systems to ensure players are getting 4+ quality sessions per week and 1-2 games, increasing their access to football sessions. I know other people who share these views and im trying to work with them and bring their ideas on board aswell.

I personally believe we have something serious wrong in this country at 12-18 (including elite development programs). Do i have all the solutions? no. But i feel any suggestion always gets shot down because its not how we've always done things. I can give you the numbers from my 2002 SASI squad if you like? Unfortunately i dont remember every player:

Jeremy Cristarella (NPL)
Matthew Deegan (AIS & NPL senior)
Oliver Totani (NPL senior)
Sam Gounder (AIS & NPL senior)
John DeFrancesco (NPL senior)
Shane Tobias (AIS & A-League & NPL senior)
Matthew Muscroft (NPL senior)
Toshiba Yabbio (unsure)
Tony Hatzis (Overseas (Greece) & NPL senior)
Michael Matricciani (A-League & China & NPL senior)
Matthew Gaston (England & NPL senior) :D
Nicholas Crossley (A-League & NPL senior)
Josh Woods (AIS)
Michael Marrone (AIS & A-League)
David Thornton (NPL senior)
Michael Daloisio (NPL Senior)
Michael Ball (Police Officer)
Anthony Ivanov (unsure)
Michele Lastella (NPL senior)
Yianni Sarris (NPL senior)
Keegan Nash (NPL senior)
Ben Wojkow (unsure)
Julian Torrensan (NPL senior)

there were a few that represented Australia at youth level aswell. I think a few more would have went on to represent A-League sides but it was the beginning of the league and only 2 youth spots were available and no youth league.


Is it a matter of talent identification?

That squad would be a similar vintage to the likes of Cornthwaite, Barbiero & Troisi wouldn't it?

There is also a gold pass mentality in Oz football as well, once you have been in one of these elite development pathways it pretty well shuts out any guys outside of it to any opportunities.

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 Post subject: Re: Has the standard of U18's gone backwards
PostPosted: Wed Jun 03, 2015 11:06 pm 
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fossil wrote:
matty2323 wrote:
Sacred Noodle wrote:
Matty, I would be surprised if you have any 14 year olds in your U18 squad .. if so you shoulder check their birth certificates ..

Anyway no real issue with this if the player is exceptional but should be an exception to the rule.

IMO top tier U15's is generally still a good level for this age group, U16's and 17's from what I have seen is generally a lesser standard to the U15 comp .. this is also the opinion of many others.

The standout or better U15s are best served to go to U18s ie for this years U15's 2000 born (turning 15 this year) then 18s would be best next year when turning 16 next year.

I have seen a couple of Playflord JPL teams in the top tier and tbh have not seen too many standout players ie in your 15A (including those that may have come down from 16 to reserves to play in your Manu cup squad) that would be able to command a regular spot in a lot of U18 teams so I would suggest you don't have too many 14 year olds in your 18's and up.

Your club may be different in that you don't have the junior talent depth of some other clubs and so more boys may be pushed up but a lot of clubs have plenty of good young talent in place in their 18s etc and so sometimes even exceptionally talented youngsters need to bide their time.


I agree, up until the U15 league the standard of the A division is very very good - Individually anyway, i think the teams play a very ordinary brand of football that destroys the players ability to develop, but again, personal opinion. haha.

Yes, thats a fair call. Id say we have 1 in the U14s who could take the step, and experienced game time with the U18s and reserves in preseason. Theres 2 in our 15s and the rest have already been pushed up. I like to refer to our footballing system as the pyramid. As a junior theres lots of teams, but the older you get, and the higher you go, it get real narrow and you need to stand out. Im not suggesting Playford has all this talent and we're pushing kids forward through choice.. we do it more so out of necessity and kids benefit from the exposure. The likes of Pritchard and Kamsoba were exposed to senior football at 16 and by 18 were able to establish themselves as senior players in NPL PL clubs. Im trying to look at ways how we can turn 3-4 every year into 8-9, possibly 10-12.

I coached the U15 (2012) team at playford (my 2nd year in charge with Des Huddy) and from those 16 players, 13 have made senior debuts, 2 no longer play and 1 is at Melbourne Victory. 7 are permanent members of the senior squad. I handed them over at u15s and basically said they need to go to U18s (possibly still 19s then) and 5-6 (slow developers) stayed behind in the 16s. The club listened and it's paid dividends. Obviously there was a lack of talent ahead of them, but i feel this sort of approach can be adapted if clubs become more holistic in their approach to exposing kids at a younger age.

I know it sounds ageist, but i think we do have to consider age in junior development while we only have limited spaces at the top of the pyramid. Its why im for a 2nd U18 comp (or another senior team - possible U18, U21, Reserves and Seniors) to allow the slow developers that chance to continue to progress. People give me examples of players who developed late and became elite, but they play in countries where the levels of football and the standards run much deeper than we have here in Australia (and especially SA)


if you believe in your system why get players in from other clubs and not promote from within or is it you just prefer to bring back your old favorites, where's the club development you want :?:


I dont understand this statement Fossil?


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 Post subject: Re: Has the standard of U18's gone backwards
PostPosted: Fri Jun 05, 2015 12:29 am 
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I dont understand this statement Fossil?[/quote]

bringing in more players to your club (hearing alot of gawler boys heading down the road for spots) after what you stated is the point I was trying to make, why take from other clubs development and future talent or bring back what you passed or moved on before. if your system is working then you will have other 14-17 yr olds too fill the areas your teams lack and fixing those internally from your development process should reap rewards, unless your process is flawed.


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 Post subject: Re: Has the standard of U18's gone backwards
PostPosted: Fri Jun 05, 2015 11:13 am 
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fossil wrote:
bringing in more players to your club (hearing alot of gawler boys heading down the road for spots) after what you stated is the point I was trying to make, why take from other clubs development and future talent or bring back what you passed or moved on before. if your system is working then you will have other 14-17 yr olds too fill the areas your teams lack and fixing those internally from your development process should reap rewards, unless your process is flawed.


Ah, no wonder i was confused. 1 player has moved back from Gawler, and he was never passed on. He was actually selected in my reserve team at the start of the season. He decided to make the move following some bad advice and the lure of senior football. He's 16, has spent 6 years at the club, and has 4 senior games under his belt.. i think he falls perfectly into that 14-17 year old category i speak about, and is still a future talent.

And our process is very flawed. There is no 'system'. If you've read in detail what i've discussed, its something i've implemented with my squads only and is something i'm still trying to bring into the club as a whole. You're right, the objective would be that if a player moved on he would be readily replaced by an up and coming talent from below. However, i cant foresee any scenario where we should not allow players to return to the club if their services are required.


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 Post subject: Re: Has the standard of U18's gone backwards
PostPosted: Fri Jun 05, 2015 1:50 pm 
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matty2323 wrote:
..... 1 player has moved back from Gawler, and he was never passed on. He was actually selected in my reserve team at the start of the season. He decided to make the move following some bad advice and the lure of senior football. He's 16, has spent 6 years at the club, and has 4 senior games under his belt.. i think he falls perfectly into that 14-17 year old category i speak about, and is still a future talent.

.... You're right, the objective would be that if a player moved on he would be readily replaced by an up and coming talent from below. However, i cant foresee any scenario where we should not allow players to return to the club if their services are required.


What about a similar scenario for the player that stays with the club, does the hard yards and shows commitment & passion for the club. Shouldn't he/she be given opportunities? Regardless that he is being age discriminated at 17-18?

:wink:

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 Post subject: Re: Has the standard of U18's gone backwards
PostPosted: Fri Jun 05, 2015 4:38 pm 
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johnydep wrote:
matty2323 wrote:
..... 1 player has moved back from Gawler, and he was never passed on. He was actually selected in my reserve team at the start of the season. He decided to make the move following some bad advice and the lure of senior football. He's 16, has spent 6 years at the club, and has 4 senior games under his belt.. i think he falls perfectly into that 14-17 year old category i speak about, and is still a future talent.

.... You're right, the objective would be that if a player moved on he would be readily replaced by an up and coming talent from below. However, i cant foresee any scenario where we should not allow players to return to the club if their services are required.


What about a similar scenario for the player that stays with the club, does the hard yards and shows commitment & passion for the club. Shouldn't he/she be given opportunities? Regardless that he is being age discriminated at 17-18?

:wink:


haha. he was only gone for 12 rounds ;)

Given we lack huge amounts of depth at the club, i think for the foreseeable we will always welcome back players to the club - im talking about the ones who were long serving juniors etc. I for one would openly welcome back the likes of Daniel Pritchard, Elvis Kamsoba etc. My honest opinion is that the returning player hasn't taken anyone's position given our current situation.


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