Goals vs stats (possession%)

[The Kings Jesta]

In the last 2 years (or basically since the emergence of the current Barca team) there has been a huge change locally in to how football should be coached and played at the junior level.
We now see it mandatory (though not all adhere) to play 1-4-2-3-1 as per FFA
All junior rep sides NTC / STIC etc are told to play out from the back at all times
The ball is to always be played on the ground to feet and possession is to be maintained

While i am not disagreeing with these philosophies, I feel it must be asked, what makes this the way all teams must play?

Barcelona are the bench mark for this style of football (with Ajax the original exponents, and Arsenal close behind), and it is certainly true, that when they are at their best, their football is a joy to watch. But think for a minute about the league that Barcelona ply their trade in. Having watched the La Liga quite closely over the past few years it is clear that the defending abilities in this league (outside of Real / Barca and possibly At.Madrid) are woeful. It is easy to keep possession when the team you are playing against don't back themselves to press on and try and win the ball in the middle 3rd.
Can we honestly say that if Barcelona and Real Madrid played every week in the EPL that they would be as dominant? Could Barca go to the Britannia in the middle of December and try and play their passing game on a frozen pitch while having the stuffing kicked out of them by Ryan Shawcross and the rest of the Stoke City lads?

Which brings me to my question, are we making young players one dimensional, by that I mean, they will ONLY play out from the back. Could it be argued that if you can only play out form the back, is that not the same as only using your right foot? There is no plan B if plan A is not an option.
What if you are playing against a high pressing, high work rate, well organised defensive team (Like West Sydney were most of the A-League season, or like Barca are)? A team that can press high, win the ball and create an opportunity to score / actually score may have less possession at the end of the game but they will have the points/trophy (see teams coached by Mourinho), and scoring goals is fun. Kids and adults a like love scoring goals, why not try to do that as often as possible?
Man Utd are 15 points clear (and will prob wrap up EPL tonight), and they play a more direct attacking minded football. As do Bayern who have wrapped up the German title. I'm sure neither of the sets of supporters are worried that they don't play like Barca, especially as Man U have scored 75 goals in 33games and Bayern have 89 goals in 30games.
Locally Western Sydney and Central Coast topped the A-League, neither of which really promoted the passing game of Barca/Brisbane.

Essentially the question is, with so many top teams, all around the world, NOT playing the Barca system, are we as coaches limiting the options of our players for the future if we are only teaching the one specific system? Are we as coaches being limited in our own development if we can only coach one specific system? And do people want to see the ball passed between a holding CM, back four and GK or the ball in the back of the net?
I have no issues with a specific club academy (like Ajax) having it's own philosophy that it adheres to, but to have a directive from FFA that all junior teams around Australia should play a certain way regardless of what their 1st team does. What about all the NYL teams? do they have to play 1-4-2-3-1 despite what their employer is asking them to do as a 1st team? If we get to a point (and lets hope we do) where the professional clubs of Australia have academies U8/9/10 etc... will they all have to play a system that the FFA decides? and, what if, a new national team boss comes in that likes a different system? will we all have to scrap the current way and change again?

I shall hop off my soap box now, and maybe even do some work, but i will do so continuing to wonder; is ball retention better than scoring goals?

[MegaBonus]

Can we honestly say that if Barcelona and Real Madrid played every week in the EPL that they would be as dominant? Could Barca go to the Britannia in the middle of December and try and play their passing game on a frozen pitch while having the stuffing kicked out of them by Ryan Shawcross and the rest of the Stoke City lads?

are you honestly taking the piss??????????????

I shall hop off my soap box now, and maybe even do some work

yes please, go and do some homework.....

can you research
the relative success of Spanish club teams in the champions league or its national team at major tournaments
why the German football authorities have implemented the Barca/Ajax philosophy
the reason why Australian players in terms of technical ability are falling further behind our Asian neighbours let alone European and sth American countries
why Australia cant produce a world class No:10
etc
etc

I could keep going but I need to finish laughing at your assumptions...

seriously, sorry to sound harsh, but search through the 'coaching' and/or 'junior' forums for more discussion on this topic

[Željko Jurin]

I think his Bayern observations are not accurate ...

PS .... ball retention = the other team can't score goals if you keep the ball

[The Kings Jesta]

Can we honestly say that if Barcelona and Real Madrid played every week in the EPL that they would be as dominant? Could Barca go to the Britannia in the middle of December and try and play their passing game on a frozen pitch while having the stuffing kicked out of them by Ryan Shawcross and the rest of the Stoke City lads?

are you honestly taking the piss??????????????

I shall hop off my soap box now, and maybe even do some work

yes please, go and do some homework.....

can you research
the relative success of Spanish club teams in the champions league or its national team at major tournaments
why the German football authorities have implemented the Barca/Ajax philosophy
the reason why Australian players in terms of technical ability are falling further behind our Asian neighbours let alone European and sth American countries
why Australia cant produce a world class No:10
etc
etc

I could keep going but I need to finish laughing at your assumptions...

seriously, sorry to sound harsh, but search through the 'coaching' and/or 'junior' forums for more discussion on this topic

Real Madrid history in the European Cup/UCL has not been achieved using the Ajax philosophy. Until 2006 Barca hadn't won the UCL since 1992 (When Cruyff was in charge so of course the philosophy was Ajax as that's where it all started.) Spain had not been successful at a major tournament until this current gen won 2008 European Champs.

How is questioning Barcas ability to play their brand of football day in day out in the conditions the EPL serve up taking the piss. Spain stays nice and mild all year round with the pitches kept lush and green, you can't say that type of football can be played in the northern rains of England in the middle of winter? And the Euro championship and World cup are also played during the summer.

Brazil were extremely entertaining during 2002 with a 3-6-1 formation and Ronaldo finished top scorer while Brazil won the cup. Italy were more defensive in their approach in 2006 and still crowned champions.
What's a number 10 got to do with winning things? Barca don't play with a "10" they've moved on and have a 9 or a false 9 in a 1-4-1-2-3 system (which is actually closer to the Dutch ways) the 10 is more south american.
I'm not saying don't coach technique, I asking why only play out from the back? If you play against a very good high pressing team, playing out from the back can be quite unsuccessful, and your fantastic 10 will never see the ball anyway.
If you limit to just one option, it's no different to the team who only plays long balls. It becomes predictable.
France had one way of playing in 1998 and 2000, they had the best #10 in the world in Zizou... but in 2002 the world had figured them out and their inability to have a plan B cost them big time.

ZJ: my Bayern obs are based on Champs League games I have seen, where the opposition is consistently better than half the teams in the Bundes Liga.

And I agree 100%, ball retention means the other team can't score, but what if their structure limits your retention to back four and DM/CM? you can't score either, so an very entertaining 0-0 will be played out but one team can claim they had more of the ball for the all important "moral victory"

[Željko Jurin]

So how do young kids (that is what we are actually talking about here) become better technical players by playing direct, long ball football ?

Why do junior coaches even need to do passing or possession drills at training then ?

Are we coaching kids to make them better players, or to win games in any way is necessary, even if its crap to watch, and only the goalie, a couple of defenders and striker touch the ball most of the game?

[The Kings Jesta]

So how do young kids (that is what we are actually talking about here) become better technical players by playing direct, long ball football ?

Why do junior coaches even need to do passing or possession drills at training then ?

Are we coaching kids to make them better players, or to win games in any way is necessary, even if its crap to watch, and only the goalie, a couple of defenders and striker touch the ball most of the game?

The question is "why ONLY play out from the back?"
If a direct ball in behind the defense (and it must be stated that direct and long are two completely different types of balls), is the right ball to play, why can't it be played to score a goal? Surely the better player is the one with the greater amount of tools at his disposal? It's like saying, goals can only be scored inside the box... if you can hit one from 30 then why not? those are the goals that make the highlights real.
Surely the ability for players to read a situation, find the best solution, adapt and apply far out weighs any single philosophy? look at Australia vs Oman, we played a certain way (especially in the 1st half) and Oman played a completely different way, but Australia couldn't adapt quick enough and think for themselves.

Does the EPL, which more often than not has fast flowing direct football, produce boring, crap to watch games every game?
Not coaching to win games, coaching to score goals... otherwise lets remove the goals and just play 5v5 possession, surely during your sessions there is a goal to go for? and what is more important, a player who can beat a player off the dribble, or one who focuses on passing the ball around the opposition?

The main basis for this questioning is that there are becoming more and more players who are incapable of scoring in 1v1, or outside the box situations because so much focus is on keeping the ball rather than looking to score.

Surely you can't argue with what Mourinho did at Inter in 2010, in some games only having 30% possession but coming away with the Serie A and UCL?

[Željko Jurin]

'Playing out from the back' is a terminology ..... It is to stop big 'hoofs' to a 50/50 contest, actually 2/4 contests if you are only playing 2 up front
No one has ever said the GK can't 'pass' to a midfielder, people who have not taken the time to educate themselves with this method take those 5 words too literally

So as junior coaches, we should also be teaching how to 'park the bus' and hopefully score on the counter ???

Senior professional football is full of tactics, styles and formations, depending on the opposition and situations

Surely junior football is about trying to give the kids the best opportunities to become better technical players when they get older ..... sorry, but I can not be convinced that 'direct' football will make kids better players, and as a coach, my job is to make them better players

While you are researching your facts, please let us know where Barcelona ranks in 'goals for' compared to EPL teams, seeing it seems you think they don't score enough

[The Kings Jesta]

Didn't once say Barca don't score enough, I actually mentioned the defences in La Liga to be of a lesser standard so I'm not surprised that Messi and Ronaldo score as many as they do because outside of those two clubs there really aren't many CB/FB of real quality.

You mentioned the GK can go straight to a midfielder. What I've seen when watching Skillaroos over last 2 years is the ball always going to a CB or FB.

Junior football doesn't have to be about tactics, but the players should be taught to analyse situations and adapt. To do this you need to be able to pass the ball and keep possession within 10 yards, but you should also be able to see and hit past 30 yards. If a CB can see the ST should he not play him? then it is for the midfielders to read the 2nd and 3rd pass and be that option, not just the short option for the CB.

What is more important though: goals or possession?

ZJ and all the others, I am not disagreeing that players should be taught technique and all the principles that make Ajax and Barca so successful in their leagues and worth watching, I am asking should we limit our players to one philosophy at all costs?

[MegaBonus]

is ball retention better than scoring goals?

this was in your original post....thus im assuming, what you're really trying to ask is....

"does it really matter what style of game a team plays as long as it can score goals to achieve a victory?"

have you played the game?
have you coached the game?
have you watched the game extensively?

if you've answered yes 3X surely you understanding that it is more difficult to master technique given the confines of time and space. naturally then, it is 'worlds best practices' to help develop young players ability to master ball retention from an early age.

anyone can hoof/direct a long ball forward in the hope a 6ft + giant can nod the ball down to a speedy second striker (even at the Britannia on a cold winters night).

Barcelona, if it chose could play like stoke but could stoke play like Barcelona????

possession is simple a means to an end...it doesn't suit all teams.....but those players who can, are more likely to have a greater ability to earn contracts at a greater range of clubs....


when referring to Mourinho at Inter (which really supports my argument), you realise that if he as coach wanted Inter to play a possession based game, the players would be capable. the fact he chose a counter attacking style simply implies that he felt it was the best way to beat Barca.....BUT this is at senior level and I would bet that the majority of the players in his team have had possession based emphasis coaching...

teach the young ones to master the ball with all parts of the body with an understanding of time and space from a young age and then as seniors they can adapt to whatever tactics/formation/system the coach wants

[The Kings Jesta]

"the fact he chose a counter attacking style simply implies that he felt it was the best way to beat Barca"

^^ this, with regards to my question of "should we teach young players one specific philosophy of play?" Barca had 1 game plan, Inter had 2

re: anyone can hoof/direct a long ball forward in the hope a 6ft + giant can nod the ball down to a speedy second striker (even at the Britannia on a cold winters night)

it's not actually that easy... one, the ball in needs to give the 1st ST a chance to win the ball, secondly the ST has to have the technical ability to bring the ball down for the speedy 2nd ST, and last but not least the 2nd ST has to be able score otherwise none of the rest was worth it.

yes anyone can hoof a ball anywhere on the park, but to actually set up a goal scoring chance it has to be more of a pass in the air...
just as anyone can pass 5 yards to the guy next to him and "retain possession".

can Stoke play like Barca, of course not, but they are also a team limited to one philosophy and that is why this season may be Pullis' last.
can Barca play like Stoke, probably not as they don't have a fwd player over 5'11 (the last time they did he scored a bucket load of goals in one season and they still shipped him off to Milan).

you are right, a player who can keep possession is more valuable than a player who can't. But is a player who can score goals but limited in possession more valuable than a player who can keep possession but can't score goals?
is a player who can retain possession by seeing the whole pitch more valuable than the tika-taka only player?

I will reiterate I have no issues with ball playing sides. ZJ was 100% correct when he said if you have the ball the other team cant score. Maybe I'll rephrase the question "is ball retention at the expense of chance creation worth it?" over the last 12 years of coaching I've seen and heard numerous coaches cry out "KEEP POSSESSION" when a player tries to move the ball forward to the next line but doesn't quite come off (this was not a hoofed ball). This is a major contributing factor as to why we have no #10s in Australia (until Tom Rogic).
But also, what about when you find that elusive #10 who can unlock defences with a deft touch... but the ST has only worked on possession based football so he fluffs the chance?

It's good to get your views, this whole topic has been because of a few recent discussions with local 1st/res/18s coaches. The common theme was it's all well and good for young players to play out from the back and keep possession through the 1st and 2nd thirds but too many lack the killer instinct in and around the box.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q5W6vBI3mGE
a great team goal with multiple passes and a clinical finish
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4jPisdl3Gj4
one direct ball and one very direct finish.

both are fantastic goals, but if you can only master one then you can't take advantage of all opportunities.
have both up your sleeve and watch how much more effective a footballer you will be, and how much more valuable in the future

[MegaBonus]

"is ball retention at the expense of chance creation worth it?"

sorry to keep harping on it.....but you cant create chances without the ball.....like I previously said...'possession is simply a means to an end'

have you asked yourself what benefits are there in dominating possession??? ZJ has given 1 reason, but there's more and therein lies the answer why every major successful footballing nation has adopted this playing style (its also the reason why the FA has so many foreign coaches)

do yourself a favour a closely study how good players receive a ball (body shape) and if possible what their first choice of pass is....

‘We do not keep the ball adequately enough, our players are not as technically gifted as you need to be in order to reach the later stages of the World Cup, and — with the exception of Wayne Rooney — our better players are no longer at their prime performing age.

‘Keeping the ball is a prerequisite for any aspirational international side — our inability to do so is a recurring problem — and it is clear there is not going to be a transformation on that front with this particular squad in the next 12 months.’

Gary Lineker 2013

The England team at Euro 2012 did not look like a cohesive unit. Roy Hodgson, the current England manager is acutely aware of the problem. Speaking at the Uefa Conference for European national coaches in Warsaw in September 2012 he admitted,

“We can’t ignore the trends. England must maintain possession of the ball better and we have to work hard at international and club level.

the following was said by one of Englands most technically gifted players - Hoddle

We need to start with a much lower age group and work with them on ball appreciation. A high percentage of the players released by their clubs who come for a trial at my academy are small; they are talented, they have the technique, they can pass the ball, but too often clubs desire athletes - tall, fast, strong footballers. 'He's a big lad, 6ft 2in and he can run... OK, we will keep him.'


They are obviously required attributes for a professional footballer, but big and strong comes next for me. My academy team played Real Madrid and one of our lads stood out because he had instant touch, but those players are two a penny in Spain and Holland, because they are taught to master the ball from a young age.

and from the FA Technical Director

Brooking earmarked England's recent defeat to Holland at the European under-21 Championships as an example where technical ability cost the team.

"We gave the ball away too much and then we had to work so hard to get it back," he told BBC Sport.

"We need to give players the technical tools so we don't rely on effort."

The FA skills programme, launched at Wembley on Thursday by Brooking and England midfielder Frank Lampard, aims to raise technical standards amongst 5-11 year olds - the key age at which skills are ingrained.

[FK Partizan]

I think his Bayern observations are not accurate ...

PS .... ball retention = the other team can't score goals if you keep the ball

Although I agree with your comments in theory Zeljko & most people would. However, try to explain these results.

Barca : 1 vs Celtic : 2 (2012) possession by Celtic 16%

Chelsea :1 vs Barca : 0 (2012) possession by Chelsea 20%

Surely this game is far more complex than ball retention = opponent can't score goals.

Interpretation of playing from the back is the key in coaching our youngsters the right way. Some coaches would consider the 90m+ injury time method of playing from the back as true possessional football. You can't score goals from keeping possession in the back either. This is not how the curriculum should be interpreted nor taught.

Opportunity is created with an element of calculated risk & for developmental purposes the clock for possession should start from the defence to the midfield.

[FK Partizan]

"the fact he chose a counter attacking style simply implies that he felt it was the best way to beat Barca"

^^ this, with regards to my question of "should we teach young players one specific philosophy of play?" Barca had 1 game plan, Inter had 2

re: anyone can hoof/direct a long ball forward in the hope a 6ft + giant can nod the ball down to a speedy second striker (even at the Britannia on a cold winters night)

it's not actually that easy... one, the ball in needs to give the 1st ST a chance to win the ball, secondly the ST has to have the technical ability to bring the ball down for the speedy 2nd ST, and last but not least the 2nd ST has to be able score otherwise none of the rest was worth it.

yes anyone can hoof a ball anywhere on the park, but to actually set up a goal scoring chance it has to be more of a pass in the air...
just as anyone can pass 5 yards to the guy next to him and "retain possession".

can Stoke play like Barca, of course not, but they are also a team limited to one philosophy and that is why this season may be Pullis' last.
can Barca play like Stoke, probably not as they don't have a fwd player over 5'11 (the last time they did he scored a bucket load of goals in one season and they still shipped him off to Milan).

you are right, a player who can keep possession is more valuable than a player who can't. But is a player who can score goals but limited in possession more valuable than a player who can keep possession but can't score goals?
is a player who can retain possession by seeing the whole pitch more valuable than the tika-taka only player?

I will reiterate I have no issues with ball playing sides. ZJ was 100% correct when he said if you have the ball the other team cant score. Maybe I'll rephrase the question "is ball retention at the expense of chance creation worth it?" over the last 12 years of coaching I've seen and heard numerous coaches cry out "KEEP POSSESSION" when a player tries to move the ball forward to the next line but doesn't quite come off (this was not a hoofed ball). This is a major contributing factor as to why we have no #10s in Australia (until Tom Rogic).
But also, what about when you find that elusive #10 who can unlock defences with a deft touch... but the ST has only worked on possession based football so he fluffs the chance?

It's good to get your views, this whole topic has been because of a few recent discussions with local 1st/res/18s coaches. The common theme was it's all well and good for young players to play out from the back and keep possession through the 1st and 2nd thirds but too many lack the killer instinct in and around the box.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q5W6vBI3mGE
a great team goal with multiple passes and a clinical finish
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4jPisdl3Gj4
one direct ball and one very direct finish.

both are fantastic goals, but if you can only master one then you can't take advantage of all opportunities.
have both up your sleeve and watch how much more effective a footballer you will be, and how much more valuable in the future

Finally some intelligence in a thread by both sides.

[aufc_123]

I think his Bayern observations are not accurate ...

PS .... ball retention = the other team can't score goals if you keep the ball

Although I agree with your comments in theory Zeljko & most people would. However, try to explain these results.

Barca : 1 vs Celtic : 2 (2012) possession by Celtic 16%

Chelsea :1 vs Barca : 0 (2012) possession by Chelsea 20%

Surely this game is far more complex than ball retention = opponent can't score goals.

Interpretation of playing from the back is the key in coaching our youngsters the right way. Some coaches would consider the 90m+ injury time method of playing from the back as true possessional football. You can't score goals from keeping possession in the back either. This is not how the curriculum should be interpreted nor taught.

Opportunity is created with an element of calculated risk & for developmental purposes the clock for possession should start from the defence to the midfield.

I'm sure the correlation of keeping possession and scoring more goals would be a positive one. Kids up to the age of 15 don't really need to know about the tactics of football, they're too young to understand, but to produce the best footballers possible playing out of tight situations is imperative to their development.

[Željko Jurin]

I think his Bayern observations are not accurate ...

PS .... ball retention = the other team can't score goals if you keep the ball

Although I agree with your comments in theory Zeljko & most people would. However, try to explain these results.

Barca : 1 vs Celtic : 2 (2012) possession by Celtic 16%

Chelsea :1 vs Barca : 0 (2012) possession by Chelsea 20%

Surely this game is far more complex than ball retention = opponent can't score goals.

Interpretation of playing from the back is the key in coaching our youngsters the right way. Some coaches would consider the 90m+ injury time method of playing from the back as true possessional football. You can't score goals from keeping possession in the back either. This is not how the curriculum should be interpreted nor taught.

Opportunity is created with an element of calculated risk & for developmental purposes the clock for possession should start from the defence to the midfield.

2 games in how many thousands ??

No 'system' or 'methodology' is ever perfect (again today showed this).... but surely you would rather go with the percentages

Just like teaching kids to read, write or maths ..... teachers are going to go with proven succesful teaching methods, rather then 'hit and miss' approach that might and will occasionally succeed

[justmyopinion]

Teaching young players to play out from the back, keep possession, body positioning, importantance of first touch, etc takes many years for young players to perfect and then develop into better technically gifted smart senior players.

Teaching young players to play direct long ball football can be taught in 1 training.

[ikon]

Teaching young players to play out from the back, keep possession, body positioning, importantance of first touch, etc takes many years for young players to perfect and then develop into better technically gifted smart senior players.

Teaching young players to play direct long ball football can be taught in 1 training.

SPOT ON!

you must persist with it...

[FK Partizan]

I think his Bayern observations are not accurate ...

PS .... ball retention = the other team can't score goals if you keep the ball

Although I agree with your comments in theory Zeljko & most people would. However, try to explain these results.

Barca : 1 vs Celtic : 2 (2012) possession by Celtic 16%

Chelsea :1 vs Barca : 0 (2012) possession by Chelsea 20%

Surely this game is far more complex than ball retention = opponent can't score goals.

Interpretation of playing from the back is the key in coaching our youngsters the right way. Some coaches would consider the 90m+ injury time method of playing from the back as true possessional football. You can't score goals from keeping possession in the back either. This is not how the curriculum should be interpreted nor taught.

Opportunity is created with an element of calculated risk & for developmental purposes the clock for possession should start from the defence to the midfield.

2 games in how many thousands ??

No 'system' or 'methodology' is ever perfect (again today showed this).... but surely you would rather go with the percentages

Just like teaching kids to read, write or maths ..... teachers are going to go with proven succesful teaching methods, rather then 'hit and miss' that might and will occasionally succeed

If you read my comments carefully .......... I am in support of the curriculum. What I'm not in support of is some coaches demanding the rollout by the keeper to a 50:50 challenge, or keeping high possession in the defensive half resulting in extremely low transition into the midfield or attacking half. Lets admit we have all seen this happen on serval occasions in juniors. Regardless of the result, stick to a purest type system without a slight variation continuously puts pressure in the defence that will result in a breakdown sooner or later. The very thing you strategise to avoid you create.

Like I said, Football is far more complex than just possession. Creating opportunity & balanced risk should also be considered. Chelsea won that match by bolstering up the defence & catching them on the counter. Employing this strategy by the keeper once or twice in the game whilst the opponents are pushed into the attacking half is good football. Keeping the defenders honest so to speak. No intention to insult you with my previous comments.

Cheers

[Željko Jurin]

No insult taken

As far as the keeper rolling out to a 50:50 challenge ..... this is where the keeper has to think like a player, and find the free man in space, and not give it to a 50:50 challenge

[coutinho10]

Playing out from the back with possession creates confident skilful players at an early age. They hate it at first but persist and they grow in confidence.
Playing out from the back with posession helps in kids learning to play out wide using the width without them really understanding the whole tactics about it at an early age and when they do bonus. This then creates space and open angles for the kids to pass into and to sometimes go direct on occasions when it's on.
I think as mentioned earlier some take the term to literally.
There are times for it if you have someone who can give a great ball from defence or midfield in direct fashion and put it to someone's feet and create your team to press high again when under pressure your never going tell that kid not to make those plays..

But hoof it and press, hoof it and press does not create too many skillful players for the future as said can coach that in an hour. Seen some pretty composed 8 - 10 years olds in the last year so seems to be showing its worth.

[wholemeal]

The national curriculum formation is 4-3-3 and has nothing to do with the first team. It is the best formation to teach our young players the vision and philosophy the FFA have come up with after researching football around the world to see what the most effective vision and philosophy is for our development. If our vision and philosophy was different so would be the formation.

[altius]

Kings jesta has raised the most critical question in the game at the present time. It is a one that all coaches must resolve if they are to both develop skilled players and have a better chance of winning football games. Much of the debate seems to be based on an ideological position that ball possession is critical - when in fact the statistics say otherwise. For example Brazil and Germany scored only 33% and 25% of their goals from 6 passes or more hwie statistics sow that 85% of goals in virtually every level of play up to World Cup finals are scored with five passes or less. Here I must point out that a football game is a contest , it is not a beauty competition; as one South American player said when his team were criticized for playing successful but pragmatic football “If you want to watch art, go to the theatre or the opera.”

However the critical question for coaches working with young players is, do you spend your time teaching the techniques of the game or do you teach them how to play football? Of course they need to learn how to control and direct the ball but they also need to learn the fundamental principle of attack – that is - when you get the ball the first thing you should do is look to penetrate the defense, not make the easy pass to retain possession. If you do not have the space and time to select and execute a penetrating pass then you pass the ball to someone who does have space and time. This is a characteristic of good play in all invasion games such as Aussie Rules, Hockey Lacrosse and especially Basketball.

Why is this? It is because at the instant of transition – a change of possession – every former defender must become an attacker and vice versa every attacker must instantly become a defender. The fact is that players usually transition into attack a lot better than they do into defense so why not exploit that fact by playing behind them as quickly as possible. Conversely why give them time to get organized by simply aiming to retain possession. Barcelona could afford to do that because they were pretty confident that if they got to within 30 metres of goal and gave the ball to Messi, he would either score or create enough havoc to open up chances for team mates, The fact that the majority, if not all, of these players had been playing in the same club for 10 or more years surely played a part.

This at least puts a point of view but consider the following quotes, ‘When does a long ball become a long pass” by Graham Taylor; whose team enjoyed considerable success with a method in which the majority of their goals were scored with three passes or less.

“What is tactically desirable must be technically possible”, the author of this response.

Of course if a coach is sure that their team can succeed by playing ‘good’ football – the beautiful game - then that is the way they should play! But here it should be remembered that the top professional clubs like Barcelona can not only buy players who fit their system but they can also ensure that all of the youngsters involved in their development programs, often beginning before the age of eight, will learn to play the game in particular way. Here it is crucial to understand that not only will these players develop an understanding of the tactics favoured by the club but they will also develop the technical ability needed to exploit those tactics. It should also be remembered that many youngsters will be filtered out of the system if they cannot meet the requirements involved. This is not the case with around 99% of all the football teams in the world where the coach must make whatever they can of the players who volunteer to play. In this situation they must ask themselves, “What method or system of play will best suit the players we have”?

I will watch the European Cup final with interest because what I expect to see from both teams is a good balance between retaining possession and penetration through passing or dribbling.

[lion66]

The national curriculum formation is 4-3-3 and has nothing to do with the first team. It is the best formation to teach our young players the vision and philosophy the FFA have come up with after researching football around the world to see what the most effective vision and philosophy is for our development. If our vision and philosophy was different so would be the formation.

The formation is where some coaches miss the point of how to teach each player their role within that structure. For example the mid field play a flat three across and not in a defensive triangle which leaves to much room. The 4-4-2 formation then out numbers the central midfield of the 4-3-3 and are able to control the mid field.
The other problem that I have noticed is that when pushing forward to the half way line they then leave themselves open to through balls and long balls over the top.
My point and I agree with earlier comments about football being more than just possession it's what you do with that possession and what you do when you haven't.
Teach them how to think and adapt, control and pass and I believe we will be most of the way to where we want to be.

[Željko Jurin]

Very interesting fact ......

Bayern were 2nd in whole of CL for total possession at 62% ... so what's this discussion about also ?

[# 9]

I think his Bayern observations are not accurate ...

PS .... ball retention = the other team can't score goals if you keep the ball

Although I agree with your comments in theory Zeljko & most people would. However, try to explain these results.

Barca : 1 vs Celtic : 2 (2012) possession by Celtic 16%

Chelsea :1 vs Barca : 0 (2012) possession by Chelsea 20%

Surely this game is far more complex than ball retention = opponent can't score goals.

Interpretation of playing from the back is the key in coaching our youngsters the right way. Some coaches would consider the 90m+ injury time method of playing from the back as true possessional football. You can't score goals from keeping possession in the back either. This is not how the curriculum should be interpreted nor taught.

Opportunity is created with an element of calculated risk & for developmental purposes the clock for possession should start from the defence to the midfield.

I'm sure the correlation of keeping possession and scoring more goals would be a positive one. Kids up to the age of 15 don't really need to know about the tactics of football, they're too young to understand, but to produce the best footballers possible playing out of tight situations is imperative to their development.

That i have to disagree with. If european clubs are tuning players near 15 for reserves and senior sides, why cant use utilise this structure for our kids. you can never be too young, but how you teach them will impact how they learn.

[black]

GK are players not just shot stoppers.
They need to be taught similar field skills and positional awareness appreciation.
It been mentioned above that players need to look to penetrate the defense.
The game is not always an attacking one. Tempo techniques are taught at teen years and above.
Its more beneficial and preferred to teach players to have an idea of what they intend to with the ball before they call for it and receive it.
Be it long or short. This encourages them to think fast and become instinctive dynamic tacticians.

[# 9]

GK are players not just shot stoppers.
They need to be taught similar field skills and positional awareness appreciation.
It been mentioned above that players need to look to penetrate the defense.
The game is not always an attacking one. Tempo techniques are taught at teen years and above.
Its more beneficial and preferred to teach players to have an idea of what they intend to with the ball before they call for it and receive it.
Be it long or short. This encourages them to think fast and become instinctive dynamic tacticians.

very well said

[Željko Jurin]

Its more beneficial and preferred to teach players to have an idea of what they intend to with the ball before they call for it and receive it.
Be it long or short. This encourages them to think fast and become instinctive dynamic tacticians.

Spot on !

The huge difference between Aussie and Overseas kids is that Overseas kids are already thinking of what they are going to do with the ball before they receive it as their control and first touch comes naturally, while Aussie kids are worried about how to control it first and then start thinking of what they will do with it .... too late

This is where Coach Education at junior level comes into play ... it's not the players fault they were taught this way

[Steelinho]

Something that seems to have been skimmed over in this discussion is that "building up/playing out from the back" is only one small part of the FFA's philosophy and the point of that seems to be missed by a lot of the conversation.

The real argument seems to be more about the overall picture - the real focus - which is "structured possession." The build-up is only part of that possession focus.

The FFA's terminology, structured possession, does not just mean keeping the ball and eventually bringing it forward, but rather moving the ball with a "pro-active" (attacking) purpose, while only making passes/moves that ensure continued possession amongst the team. Basically, not playing an aimless long ball for the sake of getting it further up the field, but only playing that ball when the opportunity arises. That opportunity could be from deep when you see a run, but only if that option is genuine.

So, yes, the system that the FFA aims to implement can indeed allow those "direct and long" balls over or through a defence from a deep position (i.e. goalkeeper, defence or simply from their own half), but only when it's purposeful in creating an attacking moment in possession.

Playing out from the goalkeeper is about the players in front of him/her creating an option for the goalkeeper to pass with the intention of maintaining possession and creating space. There's no point in everybody pushing right up the pitch and forcing the goalkeeper to kick it long if it means every ball will be 50/50; you're just opening the team up to potentially being attacked over and over without a chance to really attack yourself. On top of this, giving the players the opportunity to maximise their touches on the ball and finding answers to playing in tight spaces will help them to develop better instinctive and reactive skills for the future. And the future should be the ultimate focus for youth development.


Whether or not that actually happens, however, is up to the coaches working with this system and how well they understand what they're actually trying to coach.

[ikon]

football is such a simple game...keep the ball off the opposition, protect your goal and try and create as many chances to score as possible.

its us coaches who complicate it .