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johnydep
PostPosted: Wed Aug 17, 2011 3:27 pm 
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http://theworldgame.sbs.com.au/craig-fo ... will-learn wrote:
Get the coaches right and our players will learn
15 Aug 2011 Craig Foster

Many people are asking for more information regarding my comments about the recent performances of the Joeys and Young Socceroos.

This is excellent because it shows that people want to learn and evolve - something we desperately need to happen in Australia in order to have higher level football debate.

There are many opinions about the teams and their play which is fantastic. But from what I've heard, most opinions are based on little substance. Generally they are based only on what people see occurring, without consideration for why it's happening.

Many fans watch the Joeys and Young Socceroos and see the play breaking down, or the loss of possession and conclude that the players can’t do anything. This is not the case. Connor Chapman can play, Jesse Makarounas can play, Mustafa Amini can play, Hamill can play, Terry Antonis can play, Tommy Oar can play and Ben Kantarovski can play. To name a few from both sides.

Other people blame the system, believing we lacked the players to play it effectively. I question that. The Young Socceroos had wingers in Oar and Kofi Danning, play-makers, a very good number six and good central defenders on the ball. This was actually a very capable group for the 4-3-3 or 4-2-3-1 system.

They just didn't know how to solve problems they were set by opponents, who usually waited for the first pass into midfield, set the trap, pounced and fed. This is not the players, it about how they are organised.

The issues surround the way a team moves collectively. Can it create space or close it down? Can it support players or expose them? The system of play can make average players look excellent or excellent players look poor.

This is the difference between a 'system of play' - the movements within a basic framework, or formation - and ‘positional play’ which relies heavily on the players. When a team moves together in sophisticated patterns where every player knows ahead of time what is going to happen, or what the intentions are, it is able to move a step ahead of the opposition and play in space, rather than under pressure.

Football is not only about the ball, but about the movement off it. Without this, a player can’t survive for long.

The problem with our junior teams is that with no or little movement to create space, the players must always receive the ball under pressure. Passes are being forced rather than played because play is too static in midfield. I feel sorry for the kids, because they are better than what they are being given a chance to show. They are not world class, sure, but nor are they incapable of playing very good football.

We are 20 years behind the best and I've spent the last decade of my life trying to get this message across and encourage change. However, the way a team is made to play can put it under pressure and make it look much worse than it is. Every former player knows this instinctively, having worked under different levels of coaches during a career.

Some coaches rely on players and can only succeed with an excellent group. Others can make something more of the parts. This is what a well-trained system of play does, increasing the value of the whole.

There are three core elements which the best nations are doing, that our young teams are not: create space in midfield through movement; wide players coming inside to support; fullbacks attacking. These are specified in the latest FIFA report as fundamental elements of modern play to build the play safely and break defensive blocks. All of these factors serve to create better movement and fluency, which helps the players.

To illustrate the point, I have uploaded an analysis of Japan at the 2007 Olympic Youth Tournament by my brother, Paul, a former AIS scholarship holder and assistant coach, (soon to be youth national coach of Hong Kong).

Paul demonstrates some of the principles (below): creating space through wide players coming inside, exploiting space through movement, automatic patterns of team play; defensive strategies and combination play in final third of the pitch. Compared to this, what the Joeys and Young Socceroos did was extremely basic, to say the least.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3eUdGLpQ ... r_embedded

Japan is playing a 4-4-2 here, however the movements and principles are almost precisely the same.

This clip shows how far we are behind in our tactical thinking as a culture, since this type of analysis is almost entirely absent in Australian football discussion and also how static our young teams were.

Watch the players move in sync in midfield, particularly in and out of space, and then watch the Joeys midfielders, most of whom have been in the AIS for a considerable amount of time, or the Young Socceroos. There is no comparison.

Don't get me wrong, Australian players adapt to these movements very quickly, I have seen it many times. It is just that very few coaches have had the capacity to teach them.

Some would say I am quick to blame coaches. But I have high expectations because I know our players learn quickly. People are too quick to blame the players because most can't read the football and see what they are being coached to do. Australian coaches have been blaming our players for years. But the players have been ahead of the coaches for over a decade.

For example, few thought the senior team could play as it did in 1997 under Terry Venables, whose system came from Barcelona. Likewise in 2005, most argued the team was not capable of playing as it did under Guus Hiddink (who had Bresciano and Sterjovski coming inside as wide players to open space for the fullbacks). Contrast those teams with the side that played against Germany at the 2010 FIFA World Cup. I disagreed with Pim Verbeek's assessment of the players then and still do.
What we are trying to achieve now through playing in an advanced way, or attempting to, is a different level entirely and the only way to move ahead as a nation.

Australian football has just woken up to the amount of work required to catch up, at last, and if the performance against Spain is the catalyst for everyone to start working effectively and intelligently, then it's been of immense long-term value.

But the most important lesson is also that we need to have the appropriate people in charge of our youth to ensure we progress as quickly as possible.

Otherwise, we’ll be having this discussion in 50 years.

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stiring the porridge
PostPosted: Wed Aug 17, 2011 4:01 pm 
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The biggest problem is our grounds, it's all well and good to create and teach a wide or creating space type of play, then again any type of play, out from defence, whatever.

Then week after week you play on cow paddocks and pitches the size of half a pitch, prime examples to name a few, Pirates, Toros pitch 2, Croydon, Sth Ade far pitch and I'm sure many more that are either too small or just terrible surfaces.

The FFSA has to supply complete packages, to make it possible to do such things, making it a set size for all pitches, for each individual age groups. They must also lift their quality of grounds to allow this type of play. No club should train and play on their pitches at any age, but that's just impossible.

Ground availability and cash strapped clubs just do not allow it to be possible, therefore no matter what system or style the FFSA would like to happen it is just impossible with too many grounds.

How many coaches out there have to change their style because of pitch size and no matter what you do to try and prevent it you just have to play to the pitch.

But what would I know, I'm just an idiot.
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johnydep
PostPosted: Wed Aug 17, 2011 4:32 pm 
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stiring the porridge wrote:
The biggest problem is our grounds, it's all well and good to create and teach a wide or creating space type of play, then again any type of play, out from defence, whatever.

Then week after week you play on cow paddocks and pitches the size of half a pitch, prime examples to name a few, Pirates, Toros pitch 2, Croydon, Sth Ade far pitch and I'm sure many more that are either too small or just terrible surfaces.

The FFSA has to supply complete packages, to make it possible to do such things, making it a set size for all pitches, for each individual age groups. They must also lift their quality of grounds to allow this type of play. No club should train and play on their pitches at any age, but that's just impossible.

Ground availability and cash strapped clubs just do not allow it to be possible, therefore no matter what system or style the FFSA would like to happen it is just impossible with too many grounds.

How many coaches out there have to change their style because of pitch size and no matter what you do to try and prevent it you just have to play to the pitch.

But what would I know, I'm just an idiot.


Not sure what pitch size has to do with it. Narrow, wide, short or long, it's still possible to play as Fozzie describes in the article.

If you look at the FIFA Laws of the Game, you'll find:
90m to 110m in length and 45m-90m in width.

I recall something from the FFSA at the beginning of the year about all Junior pitches from U12 up, must meet the minimum dimensions (documents supplied).

I don't think I've seen a pitch that does not meet those specs.

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Phil collins
PostPosted: Wed Aug 17, 2011 5:18 pm 
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Forget pitch sizes our development thinking is all wrong simply because all the while juniors have to play for points to stay in A divisions development will be secondary
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Phil collins
PostPosted: Wed Aug 17, 2011 5:26 pm 
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I have had the pleasure of watching the skilleroos play good possession soccer out from defence through the midfield as there is no pressure from parents or coaches if they loose the ball and the other team runs off and scores, they are not going to finish bottom of the ladder and get relegated which unfortunatly this is how we measure success and failure and the coach ( richie or Jonathan can explain calmly, what went wrong and how they can learn from it. Kids put enough pressure on themselves when they make a mistake with out the rest of us adding to the problem.
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Jeda
PostPosted: Wed Aug 17, 2011 11:44 pm 
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stiring the porridge wrote:
The biggest problem is our grounds, it's all well and good to create and teach a wide or creating space type of play, then again any type of play, out from defence, whatever.

Then week after week you play on cow paddocks and pitches the size of half a pitch, prime examples to name a few, Pirates, Toros pitch 2, Croydon, Sth Ade far pitch and I'm sure many more that are either too small or just terrible surfaces.

The FFSA has to supply complete packages, to make it possible to do such things, making it a set size for all pitches, for each individual age groups. They must also lift their quality of grounds to allow this type of play. No club should train and play on their pitches at any age, but that's just impossible.

Ground availability and cash strapped clubs just do not allow it to be possible, therefore no matter what system or style the FFSA would like to happen it is just impossible with too many grounds.

How many coaches out there have to change their style because of pitch size and no matter what you do to try and prevent it you just have to play to the pitch.

But what would I know, I'm just an idiot.

:oops: cabernet I hope your not a coach :roll: :P :lol: just stirring the porridge :wink:

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stiring the porridge
PostPosted: Thu Aug 18, 2011 12:39 pm 
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Jeda wrote:
stiring the porridge wrote:
The biggest problem is our grounds, it's all well and good to create and teach a wide or creating space type of play, then again any type of play, out from defence, whatever.

Then week after week you play on cow paddocks and pitches the size of half a pitch, prime examples to name a few, Pirates, Toros pitch 2, Croydon, Sth Ade far pitch and I'm sure many more that are either too small or just terrible surfaces.

The FFSA has to supply complete packages, to make it possible to do such things, making it a set size for all pitches, for each individual age groups. They must also lift their quality of grounds to allow this type of play. No club should train and play on their pitches at any age, but that's just impossible.

Ground availability and cash strapped clubs just do not allow it to be possible, therefore no matter what system or style the FFSA would like to happen it is just impossible with too many grounds.

How many coaches out there have to change their style because of pitch size and no matter what you do to try and prevent it you just have to play to the pitch.

But what would I know, I'm just an idiot.

:oops: cabernet I hope your not a coach :roll: :P :lol: just stirring the porridge :wink:



I suppose that is debatable on what one considers a good or bad coach, since we dont consider wins or points etc important how do you measure that statement?

Club?
Team?
Parents?
Ladder?
Win/loss ratio year after year?
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Željko Jurin
PostPosted: Thu Aug 18, 2011 2:09 pm 
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If ALL the kids (and parents of course) want to come back and play for you the following year ?

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Jeda
PostPosted: Thu Aug 18, 2011 2:10 pm 
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stiring the porridge wrote:


I suppose that is debatable on what one considers a good or bad coach, since we dont consider wins or points etc important how do you measure that statement?

Club?
Team?
Parents?
Ladder?
Win/loss ratio year after year?

:oops: stir too much you get yogurt :P a bad coach doesn't know what makes a good coach :wink: not your fault though, it's what clubs FFSA want :roll: :idea: give u a hint what makes a good coach :arrow: how many players you've coached are in state teams, olyroos, AU youth & whatever other elite squads there are :mrgreen: stir slower & u might make cream :lol:

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Željko Jurin
PostPosted: Thu Aug 18, 2011 2:18 pm 
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I know a bloke that coached Josip Skoko for one year, does that make him a good coach ?

PS........... (this bloke has NO idea about coaching or football)

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Jeda
PostPosted: Thu Aug 18, 2011 2:29 pm 
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Zeljko Jurin wrote:
I know a bloke that coached Josip Skoko for one year, does that make him a good coach ?

PS........... (this bloke has NO idea about coaching or football)

:P I advised teeboy :mrgreen:

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stiring the porridge
PostPosted: Thu Aug 18, 2011 4:08 pm 
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Jeda wrote:
stiring the porridge wrote:


I suppose that is debatable on what one considers a good or bad coach, since we dont consider wins or points etc important how do you measure that statement?

Club?
Team?
Parents?
Ladder?
Win/loss ratio year after year?

:oops: stir too much you get yogurt :P a bad coach doesn't know what makes a good coach :wink: not your fault though, it's what clubs FFSA want :roll: :idea: give u a hint what makes a good coach :arrow: how many players you've coached are in state teams, olyroos, AU youth & whatever other elite squads there are :mrgreen: stir slower & u might make cream :lol:



So then we have alot of bad coaches out there then according to you.
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twm
PostPosted: Thu Aug 18, 2011 4:42 pm 
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i was always impressed with that drago bloke who had the boys from CCSC under him for a few years. i see several of them are in sasi now while anothers at ais
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spooky1972
PostPosted: Thu Aug 18, 2011 5:44 pm 
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Every year coaches are released because of results or league position, due to whatever reasons. It's a fact, always was, always will be, you can come one here and say, no not our club....yes your club too.

There are many things that make a good coach, and it is not how many players you've coached are in state teams, olyroos, AU youth & whatever other elite squads. This is one great tick in a requirement of many things.

Player coach bonding
Understanding the player and using him/her to their abilities
Coach parent skills
Using the resourses you may or may not have to develop - which varies from club to club
The players you get at trials, not all clubs get talent that can be polished for these teams

The list is endless, to label what is good and bad, to label all clubs and coaches the same, is just not fair, considering what some coaches have to work with.

Sheesh Adelaide City send away more players than some clubs get at trials, to paint that coach with the resourses at hand with the same brush as a smaller club is just madness.
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Jeda
PostPosted: Fri Aug 19, 2011 12:34 am 
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stiring the porridge wrote:
Jeda wrote:
stiring the porridge wrote:


I suppose that is debatable on what one considers a good or bad coach, since we dont consider wins or points etc important how do you measure that statement?

Club?
Team?
Parents?
Ladder?
Win/loss ratio year after year?

:oops: stir too much you get yogurt :P a bad coach doesn't know what makes a good coach :wink: not your fault though, it's what clubs FFSA want :roll: :idea: give u a hint what makes a good coach :arrow: how many players you've coached are in state teams, olyroos, AU youth & whatever other elite squads there are :mrgreen: stir slower & u might make cream :lol:



So then we have alot of bad coaches out there then according to you.

:P :idea: :!: & a few that can't comprehend what commentators are crying out for to improve things :roll:

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Jeda
PostPosted: Fri Aug 19, 2011 12:42 am 
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spooky1972 wrote:
Every year coaches are released because of results or league position, due to whatever reasons. It's a fact, always was, always will be, you can come one here and say, no not our club....yes your club too.

There are many things that make a good coach, and it is not how many players you've coached are in state teams, olyroos, AU youth & whatever other elite squads. This is one great tick in a requirement of many things.

Player coach bonding
Understanding the player and using him/her to their abilities
Coach parent skills
Using the resourses you may or may not have to develop - which varies from club to club
The players you get at trials, not all clubs get talent that can be polished for these teams

The list is endless, to label what is good and bad, to label all clubs and coaches the same, is just not fair, considering what some coaches have to work with.

Sheesh Adelaide City send away more players than some clubs get at trials, to paint that coach with the resourses at hand with the same brush as a smaller club is just madness.

:P great speech, real motivator :wink: at least this forum let's all the coaches equal billing :lol: junior trophies will produces talent :mrgreen:

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spooky1972
PostPosted: Fri Aug 19, 2011 1:55 pm 
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twm wrote:
i was always impressed with that drago bloke who had the boys from CCSC under him for a few years. i see several of them are in sasi now while anothers at ais



How many years was he at CCSC?
How many players went on to SASI/AIS?
What was his role at CCSC?
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oohnanahiya
PostPosted: Fri Aug 19, 2011 2:48 pm 
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spooky1972 wrote:
twm wrote:
i was always impressed with that drago bloke who had the boys from CCSC under him for a few years. i see several of them are in sasi now while anothers at ais



How many years was he at CCSC? 3 i believeHow many players went on to SASI/AIS? 3 in this year's sasi squad plus 1 at ais (from sasi last year)What was his role at CCSC?



left at the end of last season
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stiring the porridge
PostPosted: Fri Aug 19, 2011 3:14 pm 
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oohnanahiya wrote:
spooky1972 wrote:
twm wrote:
i was always impressed with that drago bloke who had the boys from CCSC under him for a few years. i see several of them are in sasi now while anothers at ais



How many years was he at CCSC? 3 i believeHow many players went on to SASI/AIS? 3 in this year's sasi squad plus 1 at ais (from sasi last year)What was his role at CCSC?


left at the end of last season[/quote]


Is he doing same role at WWC?
Same age groups etc?
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oohnanahiya
PostPosted: Fri Aug 19, 2011 3:28 pm 
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dunno where he ended up after ctown :?:
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rossonero
PostPosted: Fri Aug 19, 2011 4:56 pm 
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drago ended up at white city....from what i know this yr he went to white city and in his 1st under 17s trial he had 7 players. within 2 months 40 players came in and they filled 16s and 17s teams. he coached the 17s and got everyone to have a taste in the 19s... 8 of his players became regulars in the 19s and 3 played in the reserves...from what i heard many of these players were leftovers or rejected from other clubs....
so yeah hes done a very cabernet job and has done nothing for the club....he shouldve been sacked.... :shock:
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stiring the porridge
PostPosted: Fri Aug 19, 2011 5:18 pm 
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rossonero wrote:
drago ended up at white city....from what i know this yr he went to white city and in his 1st under 17s trial he had 7 players. within 2 months 40 players came in and they filled 16s and 17s teams. he coached the 17s and got everyone to have a taste in the 19s... 8 of his players became regulars in the 19s and 3 played in the reserves...from what i heard many of these players were leftovers or rejected from other clubs....
so yeah hes done a very cabernet job and has done nothing for the club....he shouldve been sacked.... :shock:



is that the same age group he did at CCSC?
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rossonero
PostPosted: Fri Aug 19, 2011 5:26 pm 
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i think he did the under 14s last yr at campbelltown and this yr he coached the under 17s at white city
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