SAP ?

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ikon
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Re: SAP ?

Post by ikon »

I think scouting talent can be done better .....its all about which club and coaches have alignments with the current FFSA coaches.

Ive been coaching for close to 10 years and in that time I have seen the merry go around with favoured clubs and coaches..first it was Adelaide City , Then Raiders Then Cumberland, Then Birks, Then Campbelltown , Then Metro....and so on..... If they don't make it to skillaroos they filter back to these " preferred " clubs and coaches.

I have still kept an SMS from a parent 5 years ago that received a SMS from a certain coach that suggested moving to a certain club would enhance her childs "dream" of playing for STIC...because they play the skillaroos all the time and he will get noticed.....that kid is now about to get drafted into the AFL...after moving clubs and coming back and then getting lost to soccer.

There are so many different pathways for the "elite" but the there is no doubt that the kids that manage to get through to STIC and Skillaroos do get better quality training than at clubs. Problem is they cant take them all ....

This is why I think the u/6- u/11 should be aligned to regions that can play for fun and get the skills they require....you could almost have 100 kids per region and start grading them from u/10's

The current nature of clubs and coaches nominating players from u/10's to " try out" is flawed.

Not much has changed in our game in my 30 odd years.....the cream still gets through and those without commitment to train 4-5 time a week drop out by u/18's....the kid that you expect to make it doesn't and the one with desire and commitment is the one that develops.

It will be interesting if Adelaide United sets up from u/12's and its free to play if you get selected .....and hopefully not influenced by sponsors and parents with close links to coaches.

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Re: SAP ?

Post by fball12 »

ikon wrote:I think scouting talent can be done better .....its all about which club and coaches have alignments with the current FFSA coaches.

Ive been coaching for close to 10 years and in that time I have seen the merry go around with favoured clubs and coaches..first it was Adelaide City , Then Raiders Then Cumberland, Then Birks, Then Campbelltown , Then Metro....and so on..... If they don't make it to skillaroos they filter back to these " preferred " clubs and coaches.

I have still kept an SMS from a parent 5 years ago that received a SMS from a certain coach that suggested moving to a certain club would enhance her childs "dream" of playing for STIC...because they play the skillaroos all the time and he will get noticed.....that kid is now about to get drafted into the AFL...after moving clubs and coming back and then getting lost to soccer.

There are so many different pathways for the "elite" but the there is no doubt that the kids that manage to get through to STIC and Skillaroos do get better quality training than at clubs. Problem is they cant take them all ....

This is why I think the u/6- u/11 should be aligned to regions that can play for fun and get the skills they require....you could almost have 100 kids per region and start grading them from u/10's

The current nature of clubs and coaches nominating players from u/10's to " try out" is flawed.

Not much has changed in our game in my 30 odd years.....the cream still gets through and those without commitment to train 4-5 time a week drop out by u/18's....the kid that you expect to make it doesn't and the one with desire and commitment is the one that develops.

It will be interesting if Adelaide United sets up from u/12's and its free to play if you get selected .....and hopefully not influenced by sponsors and parents with close links to coaches.
You are 100% correct.

The current process selecting kids to trial out for SAP & STICS is completely flawed!

The coaches at clubs are only selecting their own kids and their mates kids, committee members kids, sponsors kids, etc

Some of the better kids don't even get a consideration.

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Re: SAP ?

Post by geoff9559 »

Fball12 - sorry have to disagree.
We thought that.....but then when my son was invited to the SIP trials (last year) we thought - oh well good experience, but by the look of it you didnt get into the next selection round ....we were very surprised for him to get asked to come back for the next round.
Then in the next round it was "oh boy, there is no way you will be picked"....but he did and he's a defender and it was very surprising as we'd been under the belief that only hogs and flashy midfielders were selected. Eventually he made it into one of the squads for the competition. I believe that over the last 2 or 3 years there has been a change to the selection process. And no....we arent connected to Coaches and I dont have any 'mates' in the FFSA......and my son is a defender so the odds were well against him I thought, but there must be some changes coming through.....
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Re: SAP ?

Post by ikon »

I’ve also seen a change in the type of kids they are now considering , which is a good thing.

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Re: SAP ?

Post by fball12 »

geoff9559 wrote:Fball12 - sorry have to disagree.
We thought that.....but then when my son was invited to the SIP trials (last year) we thought - oh well good experience, but by the look of it you didnt get into the next selection round ....we were very surprised for him to get asked to come back for the next round.
Then in the next round it was "oh boy, there is no way you will be picked"....but he did and he's a defender and it was very surprising as we'd been under the belief that only hogs and flashy midfielders were selected. Eventually he made it into one of the squads for the competition. I believe that over the last 2 or 3 years there has been a change to the selection process. And no....we arent connected to Coaches and I dont have any 'mates' in the FFSA......and my son is a defender so the odds were well against him I thought, but there must be some changes coming through.....
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All well and good then for some kids who deserve a fair go at trialling and gaining selection to Zone teams and Skillaroos. And yes there should be a balance of selected players from forward, midfield and defensive ability types and not all midfield type players as in the past. FFA wonder why the Socceroos have no decent strikers!

I still think FFSA should evaluate kids directly by going to watch games and selecting kids themselves, instead of relying on clubs to pick their favoured kids to send to SAP & STICS trials. They are missing many kids with more talent.

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Re: SAP ?

Post by geoff9559 »

Totally agree on that!!!

Have never seen an FFSA official at a junior match in that capacity.

You do see coaches who are part of the programs with their club's junior teams but never someone out in the official capacity.

Same goes for someone to check Refs (secretly) and spectators!!

Spot checks on compliance would be excellent.....but sorry getting off topic :-)

It would be quite a step up (the FFSA coming out to watch matches) as it is that some clubs do not send their best players as they want to keep them for their future seniors.

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Re: SAP ?

Post by Bomber »

fball12 wrote: I still think FFSA should evaluate kids directly by going to watch games and selecting kids themselves, instead of relying on clubs to pick their favoured kids to send to SAP & STICS trials. They are missing many kids with more talent.
I can't believe that this doesn't happen to be honest. It's how they used to pick state teams back in the day.
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Re: SAP ?

Post by limozeen »

As said above, though, most of the kids will drop out and the ones with true desire will end up shining through. Yes they need a level of skill to go with that desire, but getting picked at 11 years old really means nothing in the long run except more cost for the parents.
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Re: SAP ?

Post by tevez. »

limozeen wrote:As said above, though, most of the kids will drop out and the ones with true desire will end up shining through. Yes they need a level of skill to go with that desire, but getting picked at 11 years old really means nothing in the long run except more cost for the parents.
100% agree. I've seen so many players in my time making SASI + Zone teams who eventually fizzle out and stop playing due to increased pressure and training regime - or just due to not giving a cabernet anymore. The one's who really want it and have aspirations to play at the highest level are the ones who make it the furthest - of course requiring a certain level of skill as well - hard work can only take you so far.
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Re: SAP ?

Post by magnet »

tevez. wrote:
limozeen wrote:As said above, though, most of the kids will drop out and the ones with true desire will end up shining through. Yes they need a level of skill to go with that desire, but getting picked at 11 years old really means nothing in the long run except more cost for the parents.
100% agree. I've seen so many players in my time making SASI + Zone teams who eventually fizzle out and stop playing due to increased pressure and training regime - or just due to not giving a cabernet anymore. The one's who really want it and have aspirations to play at the highest level are the ones who make it the furthest - of course requiring a certain level of skill as well - hard work can only take you so far.
How many players in the last 10 years have come through the FFSA system and are now playing at the "highest level"?

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Re: SAP ?

Post by tevez. »

magnet wrote:
tevez. wrote:
limozeen wrote:As said above, though, most of the kids will drop out and the ones with true desire will end up shining through. Yes they need a level of skill to go with that desire, but getting picked at 11 years old really means nothing in the long run except more cost for the parents.
100% agree. I've seen so many players in my time making SASI + Zone teams who eventually fizzle out and stop playing due to increased pressure and training regime - or just due to not giving a cabernet anymore. The one's who really want it and have aspirations to play at the highest level are the ones who make it the furthest - of course requiring a certain level of skill as well - hard work can only take you so far.
How many players in the last 10 years have come through the FFSA system and are now playing at the "highest level"?
I'm not sure. The point I was trying to make was that the hard working players and ones with high aspirations generally play at a higher level than those kids that were 'better' than them at a younger age but eventually don't make it far in their careers due to the points I mentioned in my first post. At least that is what I've noticed over my playing and coaching career now
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Re: SAP ?

Post by hudsona »

magnet wrote:
tevez. wrote:
limozeen wrote:As said above, though, most of the kids will drop out and the ones with true desire will end up shining through. Yes they need a level of skill to go with that desire, but getting picked at 11 years old really means nothing in the long run except more cost for the parents.
100% agree. I've seen so many players in my time making SASI + Zone teams who eventually fizzle out and stop playing due to increased pressure and training regime - or just due to not giving a cabernet anymore. The one's who really want it and have aspirations to play at the highest level are the ones who make it the furthest - of course requiring a certain level of skill as well - hard work can only take you so far.
How many players in the last 10 years have come through the FFSA system and are now playing at the "highest level"?
hudsona wrote:Just asking?

Have any SAP kids moved onto professional contracts?
From FFSA annual report 2016
"PLAYERS IDENTIFIED THROUGH THE FFSA PROGRAM
Our vision continuous to be long term and we are starting to see some positive results. It is particular pleasing to see
a number of players that have been part of the FFSA program receiving the opportunity at the top level of the game in
Australia, with Adelaide United and other A League clubs as well as our NPL competition."

Players Identified Through The FFSA Program (Last 5 Years)
AIS Joeys
Joshua Barresi, John Karatzas, Dylan Pickett, Ben Warland, Jordan Pudler, Mark Ochieng, Marc Marino, Dylan Smith, Christian Verbi, Zak Walters, Riley McGree, Tommy Stokes, Charlie Devereaux, Stefan Mauk, Lachlan Brook, Ryan Yates, Marco Krantis, Jasper Kelly, Louis D'Arrigo, Melad Ahmad.

Au Youth team
Daniel Margush, Riley McGree, Jordan Maricic, Tommy Stokes, Alec Maiolo, Isaac Richards, Ben Warland, Jordan O'Doherty, Jordan Maricic, Apostoos Stamatelopoulos, Marc Marino, Aladdin Irabona, March Ochieng, Blake Carpenter, Ryan Yates, Charlie Devereaux, Zak Waters, Paul Wilson, Lachlan Brook, Bailey Truscott.

FFSA NPL
Adam Piscioneri, Nicholas Polli, Dylan Smith, Anthony Trimboli, Jordan Pudler, David Signore, Carlo Armiento, John Karatzas, Alex Solari, Chris Skull, Zach Hristodoulopoulos, Elvis Kamsoba, Michael Gravas, Alexander Woodlands, Bailey Truscott, Liam Miller, Jack Yull, Allan Welsh, Bradley Corbo, Paul Radice, Shaun Harvey, Dion Kirk, Anthony Costa,

A League
Daniel margush, Riley McGree, Dylan Smith, Ben Warland, Marc Marino, March Ochieng, Joshua Barresi, Brandon Borrello, Ryan itto, Ben Garrucio, Jacob melling, Jordan Elsey, Jordan O'Doherety, Lachlan Brook

Overseas
Stafan Mauk, Awer Mabil, Thomas Deng, Franz Pjetri

Not sure of others that came through last year.

see that Lous D'Arrigo just won Foxtel Nationa Youth League Player of the year.
He was a part of the first FFSA SAP age group in 2011 as a 10 year old...and participated in all of the FFSA development squads along the way.[/quote]

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Re: SAP ?

Post by Sushi »

'Players identified'

Anyone with a half decent football brain can "identify".

It's the "developing" that is relevant to the argument.

Franz Pjetri for example wasn't developed by ffsa - he actually quit the game at one point.
It was the "alternative " developmental path that made him good.

Their are plenty other examples in the list that thrived DESPITE the FFSA pathway not because of it.

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Re: SAP ?

Post by convert34 »

is it compulsory for clubs to have a td?

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Re: SAP ?

Post by snct2 »

Does anybody know the timelines for this year's SAP/STIC program.

Club nomination dates, Trial dates etc.

Talking with other parents, the biggest problem for us about this program is it's not transparent enough. Only a few club reps and their close friends and families knows about this. Not sure why FFSA doesn't announce this information so parents can question clubs / coaches so everyone can have a fair chance.

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Re: SAP ?

Post by fball12 »

snct2 wrote:Does anybody know the timelines for this year's SAP/STIC program.

Club nomination dates, Trial dates etc.

Talking with other parents, the biggest problem for us about this program is it's not transparent enough. Only a few club reps and their close friends and families knows about this. Not sure why FFSA doesn't announce this information so parents can question clubs / coaches so everyone can have a fair chance.
It's a joke, run by FFSA that is the biggest joke of all.

STICS occurs in July school holidays, every year. Its all kept quiet, so no one knows it takes place and smug club suck ups get all their kids to go.

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Re: SAP ?

Post by limozeen »

fball12 wrote:
snct2 wrote:Does anybody know the timelines for this year's SAP/STIC program.

Club nomination dates, Trial dates etc.

Talking with other parents, the biggest problem for us about this program is it's not transparent enough. Only a few club reps and their close friends and families knows about this. Not sure why FFSA doesn't announce this information so parents can question clubs / coaches so everyone can have a fair chance.
It's a joke, run by FFSA that is the biggest joke of all.

STICS occurs in July school holidays, every year. Its all kept quiet, so no one knows it takes place and smug club suck ups get all their kids to go.
End of the day who cares. If the kid is good enough they will shine through at some stage. If the player is, lets say, a striker and playing in SL2 U18 and scores 30 goals and tears up the league do you think he want get noticed but NPL clubs?

Clubs want the best players they can get to further their cause, and they don't care if they went through SAP or STIC or if they learned to play kicking a rock in a sheep paddock.
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Re: SAP ?

Post by fball12 »

Taxpayers money going to waste on programs that deliver nothing!

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Re: SAP ?

Post by snct2 »

It's a shame. One would think that such a program would need maximum exposure to get the best talent out there to show results.

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Re: SAP ?

Post by Stavros »

U11 SAP for my son this year was waste of time. Just saying.

Definitely not doing it next year.

No intensity, trying to bring strong kids' level down to average, not the average kids up.

Games were barely coached, some "privileged" kids never been rotated from striking position.

2-3 sessions at any academy would be more valuable then 3 months in SAP program.

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Re: SAP ?

Post by romarios shin »

Stavros wrote:U11 SAP for my son this year was waste of time. Just saying.

Definitely not doing it next year.

No intensity, trying to bring strong kids' level down to average, not the average kids up.

Games were barely coached, some "privileged" kids never been rotated from striking position.

2-3 sessions at any academy would be more valuable then 3 months in SAP program.
Last edited by romarios shin on Thu Mar 25, 2021 5:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: SAP ?

Post by convert34 »

Our experience with the sap(south) program has been different. I think it started a bit slow but has improved week in week out maybe with the kids starting to get to know each other a bit better. My first thoughts were that it lacked intensity but as my 9 year old pointed out it is a skills acquisition program and not match day training . The coaches are not shy to pull a kid aside and give feedback and at no stage have i felt that the coaches are just going through the motions . I also noticed not much coaching or direction during matches but thought this may be part of the program? As parent i would have liked to understand the goal of the program a bit better.Overall very happy with the extra training and none of the other main stream sports offer this sort of program at this age.

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Re: SAP ?

Post by sametro911 »

Stavros wrote:U11 SAP for my son this year was waste of time. Just saying.

Definitely not doing it next year.

No intensity, trying to bring strong kids' level down to average, not the average kids up.

Games were barely coached, some "privileged" kids never been rotated from striking position.

2-3 sessions at any academy would be more valuable then 3 months in SAP program.
What region of SAP are you talking about? Would be interesting to know if different regions are the same

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Re: SAP ?

Post by Stavros »

sametro911 wrote:
Stavros wrote:U11 SAP for my son this year was waste of time. Just saying.

Definitely not doing it next year.

No intensity, trying to bring strong kids' level down to average, not the average kids up.

Games were barely coached, some "privileged" kids never been rotated from striking position.

2-3 sessions at any academy would be more valuable then 3 months in SAP program.
What region of SAP are you talking about? Would be interesting to know if different regions are the same
East

Initially strongest team sourced from strong clubs - Metro, Campbeltown, ACFC and ABE. Thumped other zones at Gala Day, but not sure if our kids learnt much out of it...

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Re: SAP ?

Post by ballhog »

fball12 wrote:
ikon wrote:I think scouting talent can be done better .....its all about which club and coaches have alignments with the current FFSA coaches.

Ive been coaching for close to 10 years and in that time I have seen the merry go around with favoured clubs and coaches..first it was Adelaide City , Then Raiders Then Cumberland, Then Birks, Then Campbelltown , Then Metro....and so on..... If they don't make it to skillaroos they filter back to these " preferred " clubs and coaches.

I have still kept an SMS from a parent 5 years ago that received a SMS from a certain coach that suggested moving to a certain club would enhance her childs "dream" of playing for STIC...because they play the skillaroos all the time and he will get noticed.....that kid is now about to get drafted into the AFL...after moving clubs and coming back and then getting lost to soccer.

There are so many different pathways for the "elite" but the there is no doubt that the kids that manage to get through to STIC and Skillaroos do get better quality training than at clubs. Problem is they cant take them all ....

This is why I think the u/6- u/11 should be aligned to regions that can play for fun and get the skills they require....you could almost have 100 kids per region and start grading them from u/10's

The current nature of clubs and coaches nominating players from u/10's to " try out" is flawed.

Not much has changed in our game in my 30 odd years.....the cream still gets through and those without commitment to train 4-5 time a week drop out by u/18's....the kid that you expect to make it doesn't and the one with desire and commitment is the one that develops.

It will be interesting if Adelaide United sets up from u/12's and its free to play if you get selected .....and hopefully not influenced by sponsors and parents with close links to coaches.
You are 100% correct.

The current process selecting kids to trial out for SAP & STICS is completely flawed!

The coaches at clubs are only selecting their own kids and their mates kids, committee members kids, sponsors kids, etc

Some of the better kids don't even get a consideration.
I agree it's flawed.

My son was in u10's last year. Good wee player, but not flashy. Not a ball hog. I believe not selected for SAP due to me not being enough of an muscat-kisser. Off season he played in a 7 a-side comp with a kid who's parent was a SAP coach. Every week he would ask "why did they not nominate him for SAP" and shake his head. From what I have heard, SAP is not what it used to be.

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Re: SAP ?

Post by Three words »

North Sap was a bit of a joke - either coaches standing around drinking coffees or been talked to like a kid at school - when we played Eastern we got thrashed and there was no direction by the coaches. The only good thing is that the kids stayed fit and made new friends.

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Re: SAP ?

Post by sametro911 »

Three words wrote:North Sap was a bit of a joke - either coaches standing around drinking coffees or been talked to like a kid at school - when we played Eastern we got thrashed and there was no direction by the coaches. The only good thing is that the kids stayed fit and made new friends.
The SAP program is not intended to coach game play it is exactly what it says it is 'Skills Acquisition Program' it is designed to give them better coaching of the key skills than they may be receiving at club level, therefore the coaches would not give direction during the games. The games are there for the kids to have the freedom to execute what they have been practicing in training. I actually attended some of the northern SAP session and never once saw coaches stood around drinking coffee.

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Re: SAP ?

Post by Stavros »

sametro911 wrote: it is designed to give them better coaching of the key skills than they may be receiving at club level
In fact it was worse, maybe the worst coaching my son ever received

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Re: SAP ?

Post by Stavros »

By the way, I heard that White City didn't nominate their u10 players (Cassio's team) into SAP programme last year

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Re: SAP ?

Post by sametro911 »

Stavros wrote:By the way, I heard that White City didn't nominate their u10 players (Cassio's team) into SAP programme last year
Of course he would not want them doing SAP because it would clash with them training at his academy and then he would lose money. maybe that’s why he lost some players at the end of last season.

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