30 man squad - what age level should this be implemented?

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30 man squad - what age level should this be implemented?

Post by Laces thru the ball »

Hi all,

Just wanted to canvas everyone's thoughts on what junior age group you think it is appropriate to introduce the 30 man squad system.

The 30 man squad system is when there are 30 players for two teams and the coach can promote and relegate players up and down at will between the two teams.

There are advantages and disadvantages to this system however I was hoping to gather the thoughts of the broader, experienced football communities opinion.

I played this wonderful game for over 35 years competitively via a high profile football club in Adelaide. I was a co-founder of an amateur club in Adelaide which still exists today and also coached juniors for many years. I have my opinion but wont divulge just yet as I would like your unbiased opinions. :)

Please take into consideration things like
1. The childs natural football development. e.g. During a game will the child be confident to take a shot outside the 18 yard box or will he/she decide not to shoot so as not to stuff up and get dropped the following week.

2. Social Rejection/Embarrassment. Getting dropped from the JPL to the JSL team is crushing at any level but at what age is the childs mind developed enough to handle this?

3. Team Bonding - having players coming in and out regularly may cause fractions and prevent true team unity.

look forward to your experienced opinions.
Cheers

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Re: 30 man squad - what age level should this be implemented

Post by matty2323 »

Laces thru the ball wrote:Hi all,

Just wanted to canvas everyone's thoughts on what junior age group you think it is appropriate to introduce the 30 man squad system.

The 30 man squad system is when there are 30 players for two teams and the coach can promote and relegate players up and down at will between the two teams.

There are advantages and disadvantages to this system however I was hoping to gather the thoughts of the broader, experienced football communities opinion.

I played this wonderful game for over 35 years competitively via a high profile football club in Adelaide. I was a co-founder of an amateur club in Adelaide which still exists today and also coached juniors for many years. I have my opinion but wont divulge just yet as I would like your unbiased opinions. :)

Please take into consideration things like
1. The childs natural football development. e.g. During a game will the child be confident to take a shot outside the 18 yard box or will he/she decide not to shoot so as not to stuff up and get dropped the following week.

2. Social Rejection/Embarrassment. Getting dropped from the JPL to the JSL team is crushing at any level but at what age is the childs mind developed enough to handle this?

3. Team Bonding - having players coming in and out regularly may cause fractions and prevent true team unity.

look forward to your experienced opinions.
Cheers
Personally, i think this is only successful in elite development environments where the gap between the players (1-30) is quite small. This means you're probably look at doing it with 2 JPL teams, rather than a JPL/JSL team at club level. I believe the Stic teams are similar to this? have a 30 man U16 squad - 15 play U18s, 15 play U17 (or 16s) and players move in between both based on performance/development. That's the perceived cream of the crop tho, and its very difficult to replicate at club level. Personally, im more of a fan of dual banding, and giving the players 2 years in an age bracket (U6 - U8 - U10 - U12 - U14 - U16) for your JPL sides and having JSL sides in the top tier of each age bracket.

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Re: 30 man squad - what age level should this be implemented

Post by Pie and Bovril »

We do this already. JPL has a squad of 14 and JSL 16. Each week two players from the JSL train and play with the JPL.

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Re: 30 man squad - what age level should this be implemented

Post by Laces thru the ball »

Pie and Bovril wrote:We do this already. JPL has a squad of 14 and JSL 16. Each week two players from the JSL train and play with the JPL.

Sounds like a great system! Promoting kids upwards is a very good (providing they are physically able to cope). It promotes excellent confidence building, especially when they return to their original team. That confidence rubs off onto the team Also provides inspiration to other players.

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Re: 30 man squad - what age level should this be implemented

Post by N5 1BH »

From what I’ve seen, with just a couple of exceptions, most junior sides seem to function around a select 4 or 5 players only at best and consequently they participate with a degree of certainty with no upward pressure to challenge them. A thin pool is made even thinner by taking out the supposed best 30 kids for stic squads, then stretching each junior squad to 15. In the stic squads of 30 does that mean 15 of the better kids are sitting on their arse every week instead of playing?

I reckon there should be squads but 30 is way too many, 25 man squad max between jpl / jsl and make stic extra/co-curricular up to U15s

Though this is based on the theory that jsl is a reserves side which obviously can’t be the case coz what fool would schedule As & Bs to play at the same time in different locations. It would be good if someone could explain what exactly jsl is supposed to be, no one seems to know.

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Re: 30 man squad - what age level should this be implemented

Post by Pie and Bovril »

N5 1BH wrote:From what I’ve seen, with just a couple of exceptions, most junior sides seem to function around a select 4 or 5 players only at best and consequently they participate with a degree of certainty with no upward pressure to challenge them. A thin pool is made even thinner by taking out the supposed best 30 kids for stic squads, then stretching each junior squad to 15. In the stic squads of 30 does that mean 15 of the better kids are sitting on their arse every week instead of playing?

I reckon there should be squads but 30 is way too many, 25 man squad max between jpl / jsl and make stic extra/co-curricular up to U15s

Though this is based on the theory that jsl is a reserves side which obviously can’t be the case coz what fool would schedule As & Bs to play at the same time in different locations. It would be good if someone could explain what exactly jsl is supposed to be, no one seems to know.
If the JSL and JPL teams played at different times you would get JSL coaches selecting JPL players purely on the basis of getting reults. It would result in JSL players spending more time on the bench. At the end of the day both JPL and JSL is just community football played for fun.

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Re: 30 man squad - what age level should this be implemented

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N5 1BH wrote:From what I’ve seen, with just a couple of exceptions, most junior sides seem to function around a select 4 or 5 players only at best and consequently they participate with a degree of certainty with no upward pressure to challenge them. A thin pool is made even thinner by taking out the supposed best 30 kids for stic squads, then stretching each junior squad to 15. In the stic squads of 30 does that mean 15 of the better kids are sitting on their arse every week instead of playing?

I reckon there should be squads but 30 is way too many, 25 man squad max between jpl / jsl and make stic extra/co-curricular up to U15s

Though this is based on the theory that jsl is a reserves side which obviously can’t be the case coz what fool would schedule As & Bs to play at the same time in different locations. It would be good if someone could explain what exactly jsl is supposed to be, no one seems to know.

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Re: 30 man squad - what age level should this be implemented

Post by Kosta Utd »

IMO the difference I have seen in quality from JSL to JPL players is too great for a squad of 30 to be of any real advantage..

Great suggestion from Pie and Bovril, two separate squads with only two possible interchanges from JSL to JPL. At least it distinguishes the two teams so the issue of social rejection, as raised by laces thru the boots, is put to bed early and at the same time gives the kids in the JSL side a chance to get a kick in with the A side, whilst keeping players in the As on their toes.

The concept of mixing players from As to Bs has its merits and have heard lots of talk around it, but I have rarely seen it implemented in real life.. depends on club and coach's involved.
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Re: 30 man squad - what age level should this be implemented

Post by Laces thru the ball »

Kosta Utd wrote:IMO the difference I have seen in quality from JSL to JPL players is too great for a squad of 30 to be of any real advantage..

Great suggestion from Pie and Bovril, two separate squads with only two possible interchanges from JSL to JPL. At least it distinguishes the two teams so the issue of social rejection, as raised by laces thru the boots, is put to bed early and at the same time gives the kids in the JSL side a chance to get a kick in with the A side, whilst keeping players in the As on their toes.

The concept of mixing players from As to Bs has its merits and have heard lots of talk around it, but I have rarely seen it implemented in real life.. depends on club and coach's involved.
I agree, the gap between JPL and JSL teams in all my experience is huge (even at strong clubs). Whilst a player from JSL may get a confidence boost when asked to play JPL for showing some sign of potential the JPL player coming down to JSL gets a huge crushing blow to their confidence with feelings of rejection, embarrassment and ultimately may lead to loss of passion for the game.
Wondering what age this 30 man squad system should be implemented? When are our juniors mentally capable of dealing with such stresses?

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Re: 30 man squad - what age level should this be implemented

Post by God is an Englishman »

Once they move to the full sized pitch (under 12's) I believe they should be able to accept that football is a form based game. A kid might be missed during the season and only selected for JSL, should he have to play the lower level all season?

Kids need to realise that things aren't given to you on a plate and no, you're not all winners. Rejection is part of life. Train hard and earn your spot in the top spot.
West Adelaide Soccer Club president Alex Alexandrou said the club was still in a position to be playing and training at the new ground either by the end of the 2015 season or in 2016.

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Re: 30 man squad - what age level should this be implemented

Post by Laces thru the ball »

God is an Englishman wrote:Once they move to the full sized pitch (under 12's) I believe they should be able to accept that football is a form based game. A kid might be missed during the season and only selected for JSL, should he have to play the lower level all season?

Kids need to realise that things aren't given to you on a plate and no, you're not all winners. Rejection is part of life. Train hard and earn your spot in the top spot.

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Re: 30 man squad - what age level should this be implemented

Post by matty2323 »

Kosta Utd wrote:IMO the difference I have seen in quality from JSL to JPL players is too great for a squad of 30 to be of any real advantage..

Great suggestion from Pie and Bovril, two separate squads with only two possible interchanges from JSL to JPL. At least it distinguishes the two teams so the issue of social rejection, as raised by laces thru the boots, is put to bed early and at the same time gives the kids in the JSL side a chance to get a kick in with the A side, whilst keeping players in the As on their toes.

The concept of mixing players from As to Bs has its merits and have heard lots of talk around it, but I have rarely seen it implemented in real life.. depends on club and coach's involved.
I think in theory, coaches want to have two way movement, but like you've said, the gap between JSL & JPL is too great.

For me, every team is split into 3 categories - Advanced players, Average Players, Under-developed players. I think we've fallen into the trap of focussing on the "under-developed" players too much and trying to bridge the gap. The team should be focussed on developing ALL players within the squad, and therefore should be focussed on the Advanced Players. Most JSL to JPL movement will take place in the "under-developed players" category (for the JPL team) where i actually think leaving the JSL player in the JSL team probably allows them to fall into the "advanced players" category of their JSL team, where it's more beneficial. If they're standing out dramatically, (or a JPL player is struggling dramatically) then look for player movement, otherwise let them play the year and re-asses at seasons end.

If you focus on the "under-developed" - the Average are not push and the Advanced get nothing.
If you focus on the "average" - the under-developed are being pushed and the Advanced still get nothing.
Therefore if you focus on the "advanced" - the under-developed are getting ultra pushed, perhaps too much, perhaps not, but the average are also being pushed. Everyone is pushed. Focus on the top end.

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Re: 30 man squad - what age level should this be implemented

Post by Laces thru the ball »

God is an Englishman wrote:Once they move to the full sized pitch (under 12's) I believe they should be able to accept that football is a form based game. A kid might be missed during the season and only selected for JSL, should he have to play the lower level all season?

Kids need to realise that things aren't given to you on a plate and no, you're not all winners. Rejection is part of life. Train hard and earn your spot in the top spot.
Some great discussion, thanks.

I agree any JSL player that shows potential should get a crack in the JPL team when the opportunity arises.
As we all know, during any season many vacancies present in the JPL team for many reasons such as kids getting sick, long overseas holidays, players getting poached for higher age groups, player suspensions etc. etc.. Its at these times I believe the JSL players get a crack.
I agree, rejection is part of life but at what mental age can a kid handle getting rejected numerous times throughout the season. What would this do for his/her morale, motivation or passion for our beautiful game?
We all know how stressful it is for the kids at selection time trying to get into the JPL team. Its stressful for everyone involved. Well guess what? The 30 man squad system promotes this stress on the kids for the whole season.
Remember this is a player that has been selected for the JPL team so they must have some good qualities about them.
As most of us have agreed the gap between JPL and JSL is huge so getting dropped from the JPL to the JSL is a massive backwards step and in my opinion doesn't do anything for their development.

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Re: 30 man squad - what age level should this be implemented

Post by Laces thru the ball »

matty2323 wrote:
Kosta Utd wrote:IMO the difference I have seen in quality from JSL to JPL players is too great for a squad of 30 to be of any real advantage..

Great suggestion from Pie and Bovril, two separate squads with only two possible interchanges from JSL to JPL. At least it distinguishes the two teams so the issue of social rejection, as raised by laces thru the boots, is put to bed early and at the same time gives the kids in the JSL side a chance to get a kick in with the A side, whilst keeping players in the As on their toes.

The concept of mixing players from As to Bs has its merits and have heard lots of talk around it, but I have rarely seen it implemented in real life.. depends on club and coach's involved.
I think in theory, coaches want to have two way movement, but like you've said, the gap between JSL & JPL is too great.

For me, every team is split into 3 categories - Advanced players, Average Players, Under-developed players. I think we've fallen into the trap of focussing on the "under-developed" players too much and trying to bridge the gap. The team should be focussed on developing ALL players within the squad, and therefore should be focussed on the Advanced Players. Most JSL to JPL movement will take place in the "under-developed players" category (for the JPL team) where i actually think leaving the JSL player in the JSL team probably allows them to fall into the "advanced players" category of their JSL team, where it's more beneficial. If they're standing out dramatically, (or a JPL player is struggling dramatically) then look for player movement, otherwise let them play the year and re-asses at seasons end.

If you focus on the "under-developed" - the Average are not push and the Advanced get nothing.
If you focus on the "average" - the under-developed are being pushed and the Advanced still get nothing.
Therefore if you focus on the "advanced" - the under-developed are getting ultra pushed, perhaps too much, perhaps not, but the average are also being pushed. Everyone is pushed. Focus on the top end.
You are 100% correct.
Every team is split into three distinct categories i.e. Advanced players, Average Players & Under-developed players.
The 30 man squad system clearly defines these 3 groups even further.
The coaches and club think they have one big happy team however the kids are not silly.
They know who the Advanced players are (kids that will never get dropped no matter what they do wrong during a game)
They know the Average players (the transitional kids that are under extreme duress with every touch they get so as not to stuff up and get dropped) &
They know the Under-developed players.

The 30 man squad doesn't allow true team unity like the old days where there was one team for the whole year, where everyone formed close life long bonds.

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Re: 30 man squad - what age level should this be implemented

Post by God is an Englishman »

So the advanced player in the JSL has his development stalling because we don't want to upset little Johnny?
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Re: 30 man squad - what age level should this be implemented

Post by geoff9559 »

reading this thread has been good but makes my blood boil in that everyone is talking about JPL this and JSL that....but forget that many coaches out there seem to be a tad biased and will keep their "JPL" squad together from the previous season unless there is an 'AMazing' player brought in......some are so stubborn its not funny.
I've seen this time and again where a good player turns up....is given all sorts of assurances that 'yep they'll get to train with the JPL/JSL squads, will get an opportunity to be in the JPL as if a JPL player misses a training or a match they are dropped....etc etc etc" and then nothing happens.
There is a club who are running a very good JSL squad with players who have arrived from other club's JPL squads (and good squads at that) but are not getting a run in the new club's JPL as the coach doesnt want to change the mix.....this has lead to the JPL squad getting hammered on occasions as they are carrying about 4 or 5 players who fall into the slightly below skill level/for age / ability bracket and should really have been in the JSL. The exJPL players from other clubs havent seen what was promised and most probably will leave as they arent getting the run that they really should and are smashing the JSL opposition.
Same goes with selection processes - we have a 'trials' system which the hog or midfielder who is flashy is seen and gets the nod over the more efficient player or even the player who plays position - therefore in small sided trialling doesnt get much of a touch on the ball as the others are all running after the ball like little kids forgetting everything they have learnt.
I guess the least palatable option I've seen over the last two seasons is where there are more kids in one age group turn up to trial....the 'original' group more or less remain the same and the others - some who are quite good are then asked whether they'd be in an older age group - JPL - as part of a 'development' team. So they stick kids of varying abilities - some who are below skill level for age in a higher age group and expect them to 'develop' and yet they get hammered each week ....to the point where a lot leave the sport. Saw it last year and have seen it this year and you can tell the 'development' squads as they have the 100 plus goals against them and maybe one or two fore them.
Solutions???......there arent many as Coaches we have usually are a parent of a child in their squad, who have mates and some do seem very loathe to upset the apply cart by being realistic and selecting on merit and position the appropriate players.
But hey I've seen the STIC and SAP selection process which seems to be focused on midfielders and then when it becomes a STIC playing squad suddenly they're asking talented midfielders to actually consider being a defender!!!
Sorry am narked as the elephant in the room is the Coach / selector who makes the decision on who is in the team and whether they do implement a system. A 30 person squad could have significant merit - but you have to change the coaches from talented parents who coach to Coaches who are impartial and will make decisions based on the best for the whole team not just a few.
Unless the above happens you wont see much change, you will see more kids leaving as they lose interest as they are talented but are not getting the nod over lesser skilled players due to whatever.
And yes a few years ago I saw a kid from Manchester City Academy - who was bordering on more than brilliant - exceptional.......his parents couldnt get him into a squad at several clubs (they'd just immigrated to SA)....so they brought him out to our club - as the club said yep we'll accept you.....who then apply the mentality of keeping the squad original together (with about four passengers!) and placing this kid in a lower group .......well eventually he left as he didnt get the run he could / should have had happen in the higher team......... coach just didnt 'want to break up the group he'd been working with for so long'.
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Re: 30 man squad - what age level should this be implemented

Post by magnet »

Geoff is right. I've seen some kids really progress in JSL squads and should be playing JPL but the JPL Coach who has been selecting the same players year on year doesn't want to upset the parents.

STIC is a joke. I've seen three U14 players who have been selected for STIC in the last three weeks. These players were so one footed it was ridiculous, with little or no attempt to use their left foot. The only attribute I saw was physical size, these were big boys. It seems to me the coaches are picking players to do well for them at the championships just so they can put a few wins on their CV's.

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Re: 30 man squad - what age level should this be implemented

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God is an Englishman wrote:Once they move to the full sized pitch (under 12's) I believe they should be able to accept that football is a form based game. A kid might be missed during the season and only selected for JSL, should he have to play the lower level all season?

Kids need to realise that things aren't given to you on a plate and no, you're not all winners. Rejection is part of life. Train hard and earn your spot in the top spot.
Agreed.
However , it boils down to opinion about who is in form and who isn't.
And attitude. By the age of 14, a bit of personal responsibility should be taken .
If for example you choose to miss a few weeks of soccer to go to a tennis camp, then are you
as committed to soccer as much as your teammates are? Are they more entitled?

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Re: 30 man squad - what age level should this be implemented

Post by Stich This »

Laces thru the ball wrote:Hi all,

Just wanted to canvas everyone's thoughts on what junior age group you think it is appropriate to introduce the 30 man squad system.

The 30 man squad system is when there are 30 players for two teams and the coach can promote and relegate players up and down at will between the two teams.

There are advantages and disadvantages to this system however I was hoping to gather the thoughts of the broader, experienced football communities opinion.

I played this wonderful game for over 35 years competitively via a high profile football club in Adelaide. I was a co-founder of an amateur club in Adelaide which still exists today and also coached juniors for many years. I have my opinion but wont divulge just yet as I would like your unbiased opinions. :)

Please take into consideration things like
1. The childs natural football development. e.g. During a game will the child be confident to take a shot outside the 18 yard box or will he/she decide not to shoot so as not to stuff up and get dropped the following week.

2. Social Rejection/Embarrassment. Getting dropped from the JPL to the JSL team is crushing at any level but at what age is the childs mind developed enough to handle this?

3. Team Bonding - having players coming in and out regularly may cause fractions and prevent true team unity.

look forward to your experienced opinions.
Cheers
My understanding is you are still coaching.

From your comments you obviously disagree with the 30 man squad system.
I think 30 man squad is stupid.
Have your A's, have your B's.
This doesn't prevent players moving up or down.

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Re: 30 man squad - what age level should this be implemented

Post by Kosta Utd »

geoff9559 wrote:but forget that many coaches out there seem to be a tad biased and will keep their "JPL" squad together from the previous season unless there is an 'AMazing' player brought in......some are so stubborn its not funny.

Same goes with selection processes - we have a 'trials' system which the hog or midfielder who is flashy is seen and gets the nod over the more efficient player or even the player who plays position - therefore in small sided trialling doesnt get much of a touch on the ball as the others are all running after the ball like little kids forgetting everything they have learnt.

there arent many as Coaches we have usually are a parent of a child in their squad, who have mates and some do seem very loathe to upset the apply cart by being realistic and selecting on merit and position the appropriate players.
sorry to cut down your quote but i just couldn't agree more with the above... In addition lets not forget about selecting the coaches son, the sponsors son, this committee members brothers uncles kids etc etc over another kids merits.

This is why promotion between teams, although a great concept, will NEVER work. IMO it causes more harm than good as you will get youngsters, who might of may of had a great chance of developing but instead they end up dropping out of the game altogether.

But dont just blame the coaches, the clubs are more to blame than them. The clubs are responsible as they are the ones who put coaches like this in the position to start with. Fair enough when its their first season and they dont know any better, but after a season you would think the clubs would have an idea of what is going on and sort it out....

As i said earlier, JSL = pure revenue and nothing more to clubs. If they were not the issues discussed here would not be occurring.
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Re: 30 man squad - what age level should this be implemented

Post by Laces thru the ball »

Thanks Vardy for your input.

No, I'm not coaching at the moment.
I just wanted to get a point of view on this "30 man squad" system that is creeping into our game at young levels.
It seems this thread has taken a bit of a tangent to be a JPL vs JSL thing but this wasn't my intention.

Basically, if we had to implement a "30 man squad" system what would you football experience peoples think would be the minimum age group to implement it?

Taking into account all the positives and negatives for young player development and enthusiasm towards our game.

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Re: 30 man squad - what age level should this be implemented

Post by Pie and Bovril »

Kosta Utd wrote:JSL = pure revenue and nothing more to clubs.
That goes for JPL as well. They might get 1 or 2 senior players but it's just revenue for the current seniors.

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Re: 30 man squad - what age level should this be implemented

Post by Kosta Utd »

Laces thru the ball wrote: Basically, if we had to implement a "30 man squad" system what would you football experience peoples think would be the minimum age group to implement it?

Taking into account all the positives and negatives for young player development and enthusiasm towards our game.
To answer your question, i reckon at the very least 15 years old, preferable 16 years old.. reason being that 13-14 year old are going through enough at this time, puberty.

This in itself causes enough mental stress with trying to come to term with life as a teen, social acceptance and so on

The added stress of dealing with constant rejection/acceptance could well be counter productive and cause the kid to quit.

Once a child quits its not just the game they will be leaving but just as importantly they may be missing out on potential bonds that formed between players within the team which can last a lifetime. They also miss out on the concept of teamwork which is a beneficial trait that can help them in their future life, work etc. These two points are just as important as the love of the game itself.

If there not good enough to play As then so be it, but at least they can get over their initial disappointment early on and get on with all the good things the game brings to them
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Re: 30 man squad - what age level should this be implemented

Post by matty2323 »

magnet wrote:Geoff is right. I've seen some kids really progress in JSL squads and should be playing JPL but the JPL Coach who has been selecting the same players year on year doesn't want to upset the parents.
If kids are "really progressing" in their current environment, why move them? I know that might seem like a strange thing to say, as moving to the JPL team would be considered a "promotion", but i think if progression is taking place, let them develop. Maybe the player is developing because he is in the JSL category, and his ability to learn is more suited to the environment being provided. You see it all the time at elite levels, players promoted too soon on the first sign of "development" or "progression".

However, i also agree with your second statement, and that's where player selection needs to be taken out of coaches hands. Or atleast, sole responsibility. Clubs need junior technical directors who are there to identify and monitor talent progression, and ensure the right players are being put in the right age groups (or the right teams within an age group). These people need to be impartial.

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Re: 30 man squad - what age level should this be implemented

Post by N5 1BH »

Can’t really discuss 30 man squads without considering the role of jsl and obviously under the current set up it would be unworkable as the parents wouldn’t tolerate it for a start. Anyway 30 man, 15 man, what’s the difference? At the end of the day it still revolves around the same few kids getting the breaks and the same kids sitting on the bench. Pretty much how it’s always been.

It’s only rejection if adults make it so. Kids are adaptable, if the culture going in at U12s was As & Bs with movement between teams they wouldn’t think twice about it. Though 30 is unwieldy, 23 - 25 max so there is crossover.

Sadly as shown by this thread alone, and maybe of more concern. All jsl teams by definition are deemed inferior to all jpl teams which is completely untrue. Labeling clubs and stigmatising kids this way is very counter-productive.

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Re: 30 man squad - what age level should this be implemented

Post by God is an Englishman »

matty2323 wrote:
magnet wrote:Geoff is right. I've seen some kids really progress in JSL squads and should be playing JPL but the JPL Coach who has been selecting the same players year on year doesn't want to upset the parents.
If kids are "really progressing" in their current environment, why move them? I know that might seem like a strange thing to say, as moving to the JPL team would be considered a "promotion", but i think if progression is taking place, let them develop. Maybe the player is developing because he is in the JSL category, and his ability to learn is more suited to the environment being provided. You see it all the time at elite levels, players promoted too soon on the first sign of "development" or "progression".

However, i also agree with your second statement, and that's where player selection needs to be taken out of coaches hands. Or atleast, sole responsibility. Clubs need junior technical directors who are there to identify and monitor talent progression, and ensure the right players are being put in the right age groups (or the right teams within an age group). These people need to be impartial.
You progress further by testing yourself against better opposition, which is why I assume you don't plays Sunday division 8.
West Adelaide Soccer Club president Alex Alexandrou said the club was still in a position to be playing and training at the new ground either by the end of the 2015 season or in 2016.

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Re: 30 man squad - what age level should this be implemented

Post by fball12 »

JPL selection (A teams) should be performed by Technical Directors and other impartial assessors/coaches with no direct involvement in the team or connection to coaches, team managers and parents.

The level of corruption in the selection processes at a number of clubs makes a mockery of football in this state. The coaches involved should hang their heads in shame. Coaches with B and C licenses all corrupting selection processes.

The corruption is what is harming kids progress and the progression of football in SA.

FFSA should mandate higher standards in the selection process, but obviously wont....

Making a big deal about B/C license accreditation is of less importance overall.

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Re: 30 man squad - what age level should this be implemented

Post by geoff9559 »

You’ll need a coffee to sit down and read this one 

I can see that a 30 person squad could have some benefits….no ifs and no buts about it as it is applied elsewhere overseas, however there needs to be the ‘right’ conditions which I personally do not think South Australia will ever be set up for – but perhaps a club or two might be able to adopt the concept……..

First and foremost benefit is that the senior-most Coach can pick a ‘first’ team based on information and intelligence about the opposition that they are about to play. For instance if the opposition are known to have a brilliant attack then the coach could pick more defenders in the midfield mix to grind down the opposition.
Or if a known weakness of the opposition is that they have limited fitness then select the fast runners or ones with stamina and if they have holes in their defence pick two or more strikers and run a different formation. And sorry it is most probably telling people how to suck eggs as it is obvious however am setting out the scene here…..so apologies in advance.

The ability to select from 30 players for a specific match does mean it’s like Mission Impossible or Thunderbirds where you pick what you believe is the best option of a starting 11. Also it means you can have a variety of players on the bench to cover possible injuries or to meet a change in tactics by the opposition – any eventuality. It might seem unwieldy but could be managed.

The biggest issue I see from what some have proposed is that if you were to have U15 and U16 age groups with 30 person squads (as proposed elsewhere in this thread)…..it doesn’t go far…..by this I mean that the U18s there aren’t 30 member squads, there’s no ‘second’ team who play on the weekend……..

So a young player would experience an interesting concept of 30 player teams, equity in development and training but this would only be for two years and then it’s sliced by nearly over a third to a squad of perhaps 16 or 18 players if that….as the U18s coach can call upon players from younger age groups or grab a Ressie player qualified for U18s.

If Clubs were to accept the offer by the FFSA for a second U18s competition that is played on a Sunday then this would mean the concept of a 30 person team could progress further than two ‘years’ or age groups. Taking into account that exceptional U15 or U16 players will already be in the U18s ………
But numbers drop off as the playing age goes up and for a variety of reasons.

To apply such a concept would be nice but just prolongs the eventual….that players in the FFSA will be pared down to one senior team as First, Reserves and possibly one U18s per club……it is a bottle neck in a way and I applaud clubs who are also running Amateur teams to ensure that the ‘surplus’ of players is somehow retained within the club but again it sort of smacks similar to a JPL and JSL scenario that has been discussed where a FFSA Ressies player is moved to the Amateurs – it could be taken the wrong way…….mental toughness is not something we have these days – especially in younger generations where ‘instant’ and ‘entitlement’ seem to be the go ie instant piano playing….not years of training and instant learning how to play tennis – where I remember hours on the court having to perfect one ‘shot’ before I could move onto the next. Yes am sounding old but we have changed our expectations about learning and grasping a skill significantly over the last 20 or so years. Today if its not instant then they lose interest and don’t seem to persevere with a challenge……and the other thing of ‘everyone is a winner’ is causing no end of issues in my children’s school where they have now gone back to only ribbons for 1st, 2nd and 3rd …..I had hysterics of laughter hearing a teacher say to a kid ‘no you don’t get a ribbon for coming last’…..and trying to explain that what’s been the norm for nearly a decade at the school has now changed.

Beginners courses seem to be that you do some training and then suddenly there is a ‘scratch’ match at the end where kids go running around after the ball ….and all that was learnt or picked up in the training has gone out the window and is not addressed by the trainer – but hey that sounds like some of the trials clubs host in SA.

This is what I see: Top down we are seeing the First Team is a squad of say 18 players, those who are not in the starting 11 there will be a fair few on the bench for that game. Those not selected for the First team game will more than likely be listed to play a starting 11 for the Ressies. Players in the Ressies who miss out on selection (pushed out by First Team players) if they qualify for U18s will be pushed down to U18s. Those who are not selected for the Ressies match and not able to play U18s potentially miss a game, miss competition conditioning and, over time, could and will lose skill, conditioning and mental strength. So the Ressies are the meat in the sandwich and are pushed or pulled either way that’s how I see it……if there was a ‘second’ Ressies team …say in the Amateur league then this would allow some flexibility, ensure all players get game time to remain ‘competitive’ and retain condition. Also would mean that there is a sideways option not readily available. I am not au fait with exactly how all clubs run their seniors program…..so the above is how I am seeing it from the outside.
But if from U15s up there were 30 person squads and the ability to run two teams in the State for each level/age group (if the club wanted to) then we could see positive change occur, improvements to player ability and depth added to clubs and the overall competition.

Ok so the issue with the above about having U15s up being 30 person squads is that a sizeable number of kids have dropped off the radar as they go up in age (seems to be natural attrition, however I somehow think it is more down to being disheartened by coaching/clubs and not receiving the appropriate skills and development earlier on so that they are let down by the system and never return – happy to debate this)………. So it would be highly unlikely for many clubs to be able to field a 30 person squad per age group if you were to start this tomorrow. Therefore to make it work you’d have to be applying this from U11s (double the numbers in each age group going up) to ensure sufficient ‘supply’ of numbers heading up and it would occur over the next 6 or so years so the very first year of double teams at U11s eventually progress to being U17s or U16s with two squads – 30 players.

As stated before there are the occurrences where there is a known surplus in one age group and a club then pushes the surplus up into a development squad (doesn’t seem to be down….so the ‘better’ kids are being pushed in a higher age group) to ensure a team is fielded in each age group instead of running a large squad and nominating for JPL and JSL in the age group……so we’re already seeing that sufficient numbers aren’t achievable higher up the age groups through attrition…….. Or is this because the FFSA state that a Premier League Club has to field a team in each age group with that future vision of when a club plays a club all their teams play that same club down to U7s!!! Pirates couldn’t field a team in each age group, so created a U13s development squad last season and had to withdraw their U10s…Olympic had a similar situation with their U13s this year and the ‘surplus’ players went into a U14s development squad….nuff said.

I have felt that the FFSA policy is a ‘wicked’ policy in that it aims to improve the sport by having each age group entered by a Premier League club, however what it does do is force a club on occasions to run a team that is in no way competitive and is in fact damaging to the kids….in that they are being thrashed each week – no one learns from this on either side and it actually drives people away from the sport.

It is meant to be a well intentioned policy, however the lack of development and depth across the State does mean this policy can place a club under unwanted/unnecessary pressure.

Could the application of a 30 person squad policy work? Not yet – clubs need to attract and retain players……which they are currently unable to effectively do as I reckon family loyalty is starting to change (a decent percentage these days I reckon) and families now seem (to me) to be ‘shopping around’ and this shopping comes down to trying to find the right coach, vibe of the club and for them to see their little Johnny improving and developing plus getting field time…..if it doesn’t suit then they walk to the next club……..

The real issue that a 30 person squad could address is that of providing more depth and more competition across the board. Through more competition there is a ‘toughening’ and ‘honing’ of players that is currently not being seen – and there are so many discussions about how our talented players just aren’t being seen. Some people talk of extending the season so that there’s more games but that then means a few players play a lot of games and could get more injuries or burn out. If there is more depth over a similar period then that could improve the end quality and SA could see more players being snapped up by the next level – again going to A League is another filter that many do not get through in this State.

Yes I am looking at quantity over quality but with quantity playing then I believe that the quality would improve significantly over time due to the depth in quantity……with appropriate coaching and development at very early stages.

FFSA seem intent on finding ‘quality’ but how they select and find this perceived quality is skewed and flawed in my opinion…….and also seems to be at the expense of developing quantity across the State.
Its getting the mix right…….ie setting appropriate association fees that aren’t barriers to Clubs joining (this could see State League 2 increase significantly – the spin off being perhaps more junior teams)……offer more tangible benefits…….communicate and engage with the soccer community……..be seen to be putting more back into the soccer ‘community’ of South Australia as the mandate is to develop soccer in the State…..not just look at a few players for further development (who don’t really seem to get a look in at Adelaide United from what I have read on the Football News posts) and that other players (not so talented) are the cash cows to assist their development……..

Yes soccer in South Australia is a growing sport at junior level…….but at senior level for the FFSA I believe there is very little perceived growth (yes we now have Vipers, Fulham and Mt Barker in State2) and there really cant be as the number of teams fielded is set…..one per club per bracket – senior, ressie or U18.

Potentially thousands of junior kids joining soccer clubs in South Australia each year and yet are filtered down to 30 something clubs in the FFSA and an unknown amount in the Amateur league. Applying the 30 person squad could work however requires everyone to see the benefits of such a system. It’d be a total rejig for many clubs and a new direction for the FFSA. Is the FFSA able to bite the bullet and say that the current direction and system hasn’t really worked for junior development?? That a new coaching regime is applied to actually improve numbers at the transition to senior grades (with kids who have all the building blocks of knowledge required to progress in senior positions) and open up more opportunities for kids to continue playing within the FFSA framework.
Ok that’s it from me – thank you for putting up with my soapbox – it is meant to be constructive and to provoke some thought and discussion.

Cheers
Geoff9559

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Re: 30 man squad - what age level should this be implemented

Post by Pie and Bovril »

I don't see what the issue is. Clubs with two teams already have 30 man squads anyway. If the coaches of the club can't communicate then the buck stops with them.

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Re: 30 man squad - what age level should this be implemented

Post by fball12 »

Pie and Bovril wrote:I don't see what the issue is. Clubs with two teams already have 30 man squads anyway. If the coaches of the club can't communicate then the buck stops with them.
Yes there are 30 man squads - made up of 15 JPL and 15 JSL players in Under 12 to Under 16's at a number of clubs, but probably not all. There are U17s and U18s at a number of clubs which add up to approx. 30 players as well.

The problem is these teams have completely separate coaches (assistant coaches, team managers) with differing agendas and will not change their teams for purely selfish reasons and not to upset kids and their parents.

No movement occurs and never has! All the promises are not delivered and development policies are not implemented.

A (JPL) coaches do not want to change their teams to not upset kids and their parents.
B (JSL) coaches do not want to lose their best players and will not let them go. They will undermine any player who wants to move up.

The Technical Directors (or age group Coordinators) do not watch any games and if they do they're not watching very closely at all, having a chit chat, discussions on the side. They are influenced or fed false information by the A and B coaches and nothing changes. Players get disillusioned and change clubs or quit forever.

What a garbage, pathetic system FFSA has devised.

The Technical Directors (or age group Coordinators) do not do their jobs at all!
The team Coaches and Technical Directors can communicate, they just won't or not communicate any valid player information!

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