JPL team stripped of all competition points

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Sacred Noodle
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Re: JPL team stripped of all competition points

Post by Sacred Noodle »

I have never seen anyone asked to provide proof of age at any club we have been to so it is all just based on assumed correct advice from the player and/or parent …

Guess it only is verified if challenged and investigated ..who knows how many kids are over age possibly a few …

I also think FFSA have jumped the gun a bit .. stripping points before Croydons right of appeal / onus of proof period ends .. which I understand they have been given … I am led to believe the complaint was instigated by AC after losing to the Croydon team … fairly typical !!

Also if there is no relevant documentation to prove his age shouldn’t he be given the benefit of the doubt that he is the age he originally said?

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Re: JPL team stripped of all competition points

Post by GiancarloRed »

Fair comments rossonero and Sacred Noodle. The plot thickens here as the onus of proof is not on the player / club but it is for FFSA to prove otherwise, which I suspect they cannot do. The player's (or parent/carer) evidence (including as provided to Australian immigration) has to be relied on when official evidence / birth certificate etc is not available, as I think is the case here, and player has played here for several years already. You cannot take the points off Croydon (who may well have acted to the best of their knowledge, as do all clubs who ask players for DOB) in the alleged context as I understand it, which the FFSA has done before the appeal. If the complainant (obviously a club that lost to Croydon, the usual bad sport syndrome continues.....) has evidence the player is over-age by all means put it on the table but I would like to know how they find that... If the player has been registered as 2000 born and has played as such for years then why don't we just accept it, there is no need for any investigation unless different evidence comes to hand.

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Re: JPL team stripped of all competition points

Post by rossonero »

you cannot blame adelaide city for not putting in a complaint, otherwise this would've kept happening all year.
Rules are in place for a reason, if any clubs get caught with cheating/or playing with an overage player then they run the risk of losing their points, so we all need to be really careful.
I have always asked for a copy of birth certificate/visa/letter from migration department of new players who have never been registered with the FFSA before. I then send the FFSA the copy of the spreadsheet of the list of players and make sure they have checked them and been approved. Im probably the only coach that has done this but i dont want to be seen responsible and been accused of cheating.

dont rely on the parents to always do the right thing, i believe that if you are the coach you are responsible for everything that happens within your team.

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Re: JPL team stripped of all competition points

Post by GiancarloRed »

Sorry rossonero I disagree, the club Adelaide City made a wilful complaint because they lost, end of story. The player has played games against other sides (apart from Campbelltown) with zero complaint, win, lose or draw. So in that sense it is / was a level playing field, unless of course you are a bad loser.... Adelaide City did not do this to benefit the competition but out of their own self-interest. Croydon were mid-table in case anyone noticed so it is not that they were dominating everyone because of one player. There is no cheating in this case either as Croydon may have done the right thing based on information they had. And no, it is not the job of the coach to resolve registration issues but junior coordinators and registrars, and your process would not have weeded out this guy who may have had a letter from immigration when he commenced playing, and would have needed something for school etc. My point remains, how can FFSA prove he is not born in 2000? If they cannot do that then Croydon should take action against the FFSA not just for points but on a matter of principle for all clubs and players.

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Re: JPL team stripped of all competition points

Post by rossonero »

Giancarlo i see your point of view, i am sure all clubs would have complained if they knew a club was playing an illegal player.
in the scheme of things it may not have been a big deal for the ones that mainly care about the kids development and making sure they are enjoying themselves.
BUT PLEASE UNDERSTAND THERE ARE RULES IN PLACE, doing 70 in a 60 zone isnt a big deal either but if you get caught you get fined and lose demerit points.

it is not the job of the coach to check registrations, i know this....Im happy to do the extra work to make sure my team does not get in a situation similar to this.

last season we defeated a team that was undefeated and they accused me of cheating for playing a player that was overage, i straight away pulled out the documents and showed the opposition.

the ffsa would not have made the decision just based on a complaint, they mustve had the proof.

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Re: JPL team stripped of all competition points

Post by TWG »

Hey Sacred Noodle. I think you should get your facts right before making silly accusations. The Croydon player was not over age but he was unregistered with the FFSA to play this year. Therefore any game he played in is deemed illegal by the FFSA rules and rules of any federation in the world I would think so the Club needs to face the penalty. Simple. You therefore must give back the 3 points to the teams that Croydon beat when they were playing this ineligible player, they were basically cheating playing an unregistered player.(knowingly or not it does not matter). You can not punish the other teams they played against for what Croydon did!) This is no one else's fault other than Croydon. Don't try and blame anyone else for this.

Also for you to be accusing Adelaide City of making the complaint to the FFSA is again WRONG. I know for a fact that it was not them who complained!!!! And for you to complain about AC getting the 3 points for this game (which is what has to have happened for all teams that played against Croydon when they were playing this unregistered player) shows your jealousy of Adelaide City. To cry about the under 14 AC team jumping a place above you on the league table is ridiculous. Grow up mate and let the kids develop and have fun. Forget about the table and make sure the kids are learning and playing great football.

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Re: JPL team stripped of all competition points

Post by GiancarloRed »

Not arguing about proof or rules rossonero, so assume if the complainant (and/or FFSA) had proof then why didn't the player or club have that also? Where did the proof come from? The player is not new..... And if the FFSA has sufficient proof then what does the club have to do now??

Feel sorry you were asked to 'prove' you did not cheat against the undefeated team last season, that reflects exactly what I am saying about poor sportsmanship, it remains rife in our sport. The document you provided to 'satisfy' the other team is not proof either, it is just your record as Croydon would have in this case, you and indeed all clubs are relying largely on info provided by parents that is usually never verified.

TWG has supplied more info about the player in question being ineligible to play due to not being registered. Now if that is correct then that is a serious club offence and should be punished as the FFSA has done, and negates completely what I and others have said re: over-age issue. I suspect that several people at Croydon are responsible / did not do their jobs. How someone outside the club knew the player concerned was not registered is entirely another matter, TWG may be able to fill in details here, but at least we know the truth of the matter, so thanks TWG.

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Re: JPL team stripped of all competition points

Post by Mad_Max »

GiancarloRed wrote:......but at least we know the truth of the matter, so thanks TWG.
I know for a fact that anyone that uses the phrase "I know for a fact...." in a post usually doesn't.
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Re: JPL team stripped of all competition points

Post by rossonero »

disregard everything I've said, this is totally a different matter.

NOW HOW THE HELL CAN THIS HAPPEN????

clubs receive a spreadsheet with all the registered players, a team manager would check his list of players and confirm that they appear on the spreadsheet and VOILA!!!

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Re: JPL team stripped of all competition points

Post by TWG »

Mad Max. When the truth comes out you will see that when I say, I know for a fact. I indeed do know for a fact.

And well said rossonero. No excuses for them not knowing of a player not being registered...

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Re: JPL team stripped of all competition points

Post by GiancarloRed »

And reminds us all to get the facts before making accusations, avoid assumptions and be careful the sources you use.

Of course we are all keen to know how this transgression was identified, if it was by the FFSA then it is understandable, though how did it slip through for half a season, but if it was by another club / individual then that is a little more interesting....

Croydon deserves the points penalty and a fine, so it is a dispiriting, costly and embarrassing incident.

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Re: JPL team stripped of all competition points

Post by Sacred Noodle »

TWG wrote:Hey Sacred Noodle. I think you should get your facts right before making silly accusations. The Croydon player was not over age but he was unregistered with the FFSA to play this year. Therefore any game he played in is deemed illegal by the FFSA rules and rules of any federation in the world I would think so the Club needs to face the penalty. Simple. You therefore must give back the 3 points to the teams that Croydon beat when they were playing this ineligible player, they were basically cheating playing an unregistered player.(knowingly or not it does not matter). You can not punish the other teams they played against for what Croydon did!) This is no one else's fault other than Croydon. Don't try and blame anyone else for this.

Also for you to be accusing Adelaide City of making the complaint to the FFSA is again WRONG. I know for a fact that it was not them who complained!!!! And for you to complain about AC getting the 3 points for this game (which is what has to have happened for all teams that played against Croydon when they were playing this unregistered player) shows your jealousy of Adelaide City. To cry about the under 14 AC team jumping a place above you on the league table is ridiculous. Grow up mate and let the kids develop and have fun. Forget about the table and make sure the kids are learning and playing great football.
TWG ...you obviously are not very well educated ..where in my original post did i refer to the issue being age related?
That is where the discussion progressed ..and subsequently that is what I was advised... by other sources ..I was told via a good Croydon source that the complaint was submitted by AC .. so if you are correct then shows not all info recieved is correct ..you seem quite sure of "the facts" so will take your word for it .

Re jealosy of AC ..you have to be joking!! ... you are very misguided!

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Re: JPL team stripped of all competition points

Post by GiancarloRed »

TWG can you tell us how the transgression was prompted and identified at this time (not by whom, as there is no need to personalise)? The player played for 10 rounds or so + cup assumedly with a rego number (recorded on team-sheet) and nothing eventuated until now. In this way everyone can learn how the system works also as it is far better that clubs take responsibility rather than rely on FFSA to do constant checks.

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Re: JPL team stripped of all competition points

Post by TWG »

I think I am a little more educated then you mate as I state facts and not hearsay stating incorrect information and with no facts to back you up buddy!!!Sacred Noodle. When you make statements like "considering the team below us is @!#! AC makes it harder to swallow" and "I am lead to believe the complaint was instigated by AC after losing to Croydon Team.... fairly typical" shows you have something against AC otherwise why would you make these silly comments???? Your comments say it all.

And in relation to the AC v Croydon game. No complaint made on the day or afterwards but there should have been. A large Croydon parent known as the "rubbish man" abusing AC kids from the side line & then antaganising the kids after the game when the coach was quietly addressing his team and then trying to start trouble with the AC parents when they were trying to leave the ground. Unbelievable. He was truely a disgrace to Croydon and junior sport anywhere. That is the type of parent that needs to be taken out of junior sport. Everyone involved in the game in that age group knows who I'm talking about.
junior sport is there for the kids and these parents should remember this and just let the kids play!

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Re: JPL team stripped of all competition points

Post by rossonero »

Bulldogger i wasnt the coach of the team that played you last year, the story i mentioned was against another club and another age group

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Re: JPL team stripped of all competition points

Post by GiancarloRed »

OK TWG irrespective of your concerns with the comments of Sacred Noodle and report of an abusive Croydon parent which are secondary to the topic here you seem well versed in the facts of this case (ie re: unregistered player) hence can you explain how (ie not by whom) the transgression was identified and addressed? Note, I am not linked to any of the clubs involved, but I see this case as illustrative for all clubs and team managers like me. So please let us have the facts TWG or this thread dies.

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Re: JPL team stripped of all competition points

Post by rossonero »

I cannot see how adelaide city would have picked up that the croydon player was not registered, this surely would have been picked up by the ffsa.

And can someone please explain to me why misbehaved parents have been brought into this discussion

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Re: JPL team stripped of all competition points

Post by New Boy On The Block »

Looking at the draw, AC played Croydon on the 25/5 so if they made the complaint the FFSA would have come back before this week.
Croydon did play ABE in the Cup (and won) on the 1/6, so maybe that's where the issue was raised.
I'd say TWG is correct.

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Re: JPL team stripped of all competition points

Post by bulldoggooner »

Yes rossonero I figured that might be the case after I commented that's why I deleted my post sorry

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Re: JPL team stripped of all competition points

Post by GiancarloRed »

We all await the account of what actually happened from TWG who may be waiting for any appeal by Croydon before telling us about the facts. Or maybe New Boy On The Block knows what happened? Whether it was ABE, AC or a sleepy koala, someone identified that the kid in question was not (can't have been) registered and reported it to the FFSA, or so it seems, interestingly soon after their team had lost. If however the FFSA discovered this by itself then maybe its periodic checking identified that a name and number did not match, and if so, we are all glad that it did so before the season finished and shows that unregistered players will err get caught out, eventually anyway......

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Re: JPL team stripped of all competition points

Post by rossonero »

bulldoggooner wrote:Yes rossonero I figured that might be the case after I commented that's why I deleted my post sorry
no worries

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Re: JPL team stripped of all competition points

Post by rossonero »

GiancarloRed wrote:We all await the account of what actually happened from TWG who may be waiting for any appeal by Croydon before telling us about the facts. Or maybe New Boy On The Block knows what happened? Whether it was ABE, AC or a sleepy koala, someone identified that the kid in question was not (can't have been) registered and reported it to the FFSA, or so it seems, interestingly soon after their team had lost. If however the FFSA discovered this by itself then maybe its periodic checking identified that a name and number did not match, and if so, we are all glad that it did so before the season finished and shows that unregistered players will err get caught out, eventually anyway......
what if someone within the club that had access to the registrations of all the players picked up that the player wasnt registered and leaked this information to the opposition??
The FFSA would easily pick up a player not been registered if that player scored, got carded or injured.....right?
clubs dont have access to other club's registrations

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Re: JPL team stripped of all competition points

Post by GiancarloRed »

Yes rossonero there could well be a rat in the pack there at Croydon who knew the situation (whilst others did not or turned a blind eye) and spilled the beans to an opposing team, for some advantage, maybe a jar of jelly beans? I would say likely to be a disaffected soul or a sore loser who had inside information, harks of spy v spy here but I digress.... Not sure if FFSA would check players re: goals or injuries but cards and ref reports are a different matter, and perhaps the only ways a non-registered / ineligible player can be discovered apart from via complaint. Instead of us speculating I am eager to learn from the person with 'the facts'.

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Re: JPL team stripped of all competition points

Post by matty2323 »

this all wouldn't matter if people weren't obsessed with results. I know there are "rules" but what if the kid was under-developed, and even though he was 15, it was best for his development to be playing u14s? All i care about is the kids, not the ego of parents or coaches. Kids "stay down" at school when they're struggling, under-developed etc because its in their best interest.

I have no idea how good this player is or how well his team is performing. If his coach is playing him with the knowledge he is over age and its for results, then its his ego. If other teams are complaining simply because they lost, then its their ego. Put the kids first, a lot of you talk the talk, but when it comes down to it, its still about results.

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Re: JPL team stripped of all competition points

Post by rossonero »

Matty you do realise that the player was not overage but someone from the club failed to pick up he wasnt registered

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Re: JPL team stripped of all competition points

Post by matty2323 »

rossonero wrote:Matty you do realise that the player was not overage but someone from the club failed to pick up he wasnt registered
i will admit i didn't read past the first page as it was the same stuff. So it was an "administration" error in junior football? and as a consequence his team have lost their points? Is the kid now registered and allowed to play? If all we care about is developing players, losing their points wont matter. The kids are still playing and developing. Its the opposition whinging about it that annoys me, solely doing it for the purpose of "winning" when the result has gone against them.

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Re: JPL team stripped of all competition points

Post by Zvezda »

This issue is age related not registration.

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Re: JPL team stripped of all competition points

Post by Nice One Cyril »

TWG wrote:Mad Max. When the truth comes out you will see that when I say, I know for a fact. I indeed do know for a fact.

And well said rossonero. No excuses for them not knowing of a player not being registered...
If they've played for a few years, would they not still be registered from the previous season? If you stay at the same club, do you have to reregister every year?

Sounds to me that all that's happened is a volunteer has forgotten to send in a form, that's all.
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Re: JPL team stripped of all competition points

Post by Captain Obvious »

Mad_Max wrote:
GiancarloRed wrote:......but at least we know the truth of the matter, so thanks TWG.
I know for a fact that anyone that uses the phrase "I know for a fact...." in a post usually doesn't.
Mind you, you've started with that very phrase. :D
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Re: JPL team stripped of all competition points

Post by Mad_Max »

Captain Obvious wrote:
Mad_Max wrote:
GiancarloRed wrote:......but at least we know the truth of the matter, so thanks TWG.
I know for a fact that anyone that uses the phrase "I know for a fact...." in a post usually doesn't.
Mind you, you've started with that very phrase. :D
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