New Junior Structure 2014

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Željko Jurin
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Re: New Junior Structure 2014

Post by Željko Jurin »

Time for Ginger Pele to sort a few out ...
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Re: New Junior Structure 2014

Post by Victoria's Secret »

Željko Jurin wrote:Time for Ginger Pele to sort a few out ...
He can't even sort his own socks out!

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Re: New Junior Structure 2014

Post by matty2323 »

DUKE BLUE wrote:
matty2323 wrote:
DUKE BLUE wrote:
Like I said before ....."snap shot"......2 games......120 minutes .....13 free kicks .....3 yellow cards.

If a kid damages a player would it not be suitable to speak to him, they can come off & on throughout the game...the teacher...the game.

The parents are not accustomed to seeing kids being carried off the pitch...when it is your own kid you'll understand. But if strength is a key aspect of coaching then I pity the development in South Australia......strength may be part of the game but tackling from behind is not.

11yo kids...not professionals.
a kid needs information on the spot about a miss timed challenge? He knew he had committed a foul, the referee paid a free kick and spoke to him. I do not understand what more needs to be done? As for a tackle from behind, that's debatable, the young lad went past him with superior skill, he hung a leg and caught him. Accidents do happen on football pitches.

You believe strength is not important? shielding a ball, holding off opponents in tight areas. Im not talking about who can bench press more at 12 years old. But if players are chasing the same ball, shoulder to shoulder, then majority of the time at this age the smaller lad losses out. Its not foul or rough play, they're fighting for the same piece of grass surrounding the ball. protect the ball, protect the space and turn into it.. just because a smaller lad is knocked over dosen't mean the bigger lad is a bully.

You have an extremely good group of lads, with tremendous technical ability. But dont be naive, they need to get used to physical contact. Im not talking about the type of physical contact that involves getting their legs chopped, but players leaning on each other for a ball is allowed in our game.

Strength is a key component of the game world wide. Messi, Ronaldo.. two of the strongest players in the world. The ability to ride tackles, beat opponents etc.. thats agility, strength, pace and skill. As for getting back on topic, what do you think about these rules? You've just played a season in a league consisting of all SL clubs.. do you believe playing in the A division is important?

Did i say strength was not important? It is part of the game but there are far more things that can be taught for these kids at this age.
I was 5m from the incident you were on the far side of the pitch, the referee provided a free kick and did not communicate the dangers of this sort of tackle....he was a Raiders referee.

Empathise or reverse the role of the incident & let me know how you would have handled this type of incident?

I have hijacked the original topic so we can discuss under a differnt topic in junior football.....I do not disagree that the better kids need to be playing amongst eachother to be challenged... I came on here recommending more games but also contributing to your detail with respect to "developing" players....I did not witness in the 2 games we have played what has been asked of us as coaches from the FFA. But like you said you have some raw talent that needs to be nurtured.
That's fair enough, but please don't compare the standard of your squad to mine. Like i've said, you're the benchmark, and when ever i've spoken to parent's of my team, i've openly stated we're 12-18 months behind yours in terms of development. Hopefully with SSGs in place we can start producing the same sort of technical excellence you're. You talk about being taught stuff by the FFA, but there is a very common term in football "tactics is nothing without technique". I want to teach my boys all the correct styles of football, playing out from the back etc, and i encourage that. I dont do anything at training that encourages long balls. But playing out involves trust, trust the players must have in themselves and their team mates to have a good first touch and play out. My boys have been getting this information for 8 months. To make matters worse, they weren't a blank slate to start with, they had 5 years of bad habits for E&D. 1 player in my team had heard the term "body positioning" at the start of the season, and he was 9 years old from Raiders. You would be surprised what ive had to teach these boys, stuff i would imagine your u6-u8's are being taught.

And ZJ, i know Playford as a whole are against it and already made contact with Toth.

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Re: New Junior Structure 2014

Post by matty2323 »

Željko Jurin wrote:Now back to the discussion, Playford have 1 coach represented here, Modbury a couple of people/committee? , any other State league clubs want their voice heard, or are they happy with the proposal ?
West Adelaide (im not sure if he's an official rep) seems to not like the idea, but the fact they're being promoted it wont affect them?

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Re: New Junior Structure 2014

Post by Abra1 »

I wonder if this would be better phased in slowly? ie u13 and below next year, then u14 and below the following etc. It would be a kinder way to do it...

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Re: New Junior Structure 2014

Post by norn »

Abra1's suggestion sounds fairer, phase it in from 12's next year and allow current divisional structures to continue. It hardly seems fair that Enfield 14A (9 wins 1 draw 4 losses - currently 4th ) should be relegated to a lower division. The club has put a lot of effort into this team and they deserve their Div A status. Clubs like Enfield do not have the resources of most Super League teams and building up through their juniors is their best ( perhaps only) option for future senior success. The 17A's ( Div C two years ago) cup win and league position are proof of what can be achieved - 4 of that team where named in the senior team today - 3 could still play Under 16s. Denying clubs like this the option to field junior teams in a league according to their ability restricts this ability. This year it affects Enfield and Cobras - 2 more clubs will be affected next year.

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Re: New Junior Structure 2014

Post by grumpy »

Željko Jurin wrote:
robinfriday10 wrote:Was it about the time the McCormacks got involved that your juniors started improving?
Sorry to say, but it was actually when they left ...... not many kids from that era still at the club
Ha ha that's a very funny statement

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Re: New Junior Structure 2014

Post by The moyesiah »

I get it and understand it, I also like it for the game.

However,

Some coaches will ask is it worth it vs time spent?
The grounds will be an absolute joke, PL clubs will have to have 115 games (not including trial games for all ages) this has to be a lift of 20 plus games, and some grounds today are unplayable with 3-5 rounds to go.
Summer sport kids overlap.
Where are these extra junior games being added? if they add at the start half will be postponed due to heat policy, meaning seasons will go to Oct/Nov.
I understand this year is a wet one, however even if it was not wet some grounds are awful and have no grass, now add 20 plus games on these grounds.
I can see State league teams producing better play because their grounds are not trashed.

I say it again I get it, I understand it, but is SA football capable to do it?

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Re: New Junior Structure 2014

Post by DUKE BLUE »

MG

You are loyal to your club & this is something no-one can take from you & something I regard as extremely respectable....

You sound mature beyond your age & have shown in your words passion that drives your ambition.....coaching is a challenge regardless of how long we be doing it.

One year a bench mark the next rebuilding a squad...."swings & roundabouts"...

We should have a common goal to have as many South Australians representing this state at the very highest level.....keep at it...and we meet again.....you learn ......I learn.....we all learn....football....the teacher.

Big Smile :D

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Re: New Junior Structure 2014

Post by Željko Jurin »

grumpy wrote:
Željko Jurin wrote:
robinfriday10 wrote:Was it about the time the McCormacks got involved that your juniors started improving?
Sorry to say, but it was actually when they left ...... not many kids from that era still at the club
Ha ha that's a very funny statement
Please, tell me which kids are still at the club when they were in charge of juniors ?
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Re: New Junior Structure 2014

Post by give us a break »

Good discussion here.
Luckily this doesn't really concern me anymore since my son has progressed to seniors football.
However, I would have to say that I would prefer teams to be graded on their merit and so being able to play against opposition of roughly the same quality and so being challenged on a weekly basis.
Clearly it will be very difficult (even more so than at present) for State League Clubs to keep hold of their more talented players which will cement their status as a State League side - or stifle their aspiration to the higher league. Take into account that the Player Point System will be introduced for State League next season, and the only real hope you will be having to progress to Premier League would be building a potent Junior Set-up to feed into the seniors - but alas, the more talented players would already have left due to the fact that they couldn't find a meaningful challenge as juniors.
Sound to me like a loss/loss situation for state league clubs and an undeserved bonus for those Premier League Clubs you do not put in the hard yards to develop their juniors.
Sir, I may not agree with what you say, but I shall defend to the death your right to be a complete fool. - Voltaire

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Re: New Junior Structure 2014

Post by NTS »

Has this been discussed with the parents, as so far it seems to me to be all about the clubs. My great concern is the length of the season and what damage this could do to my sons body in a peak time of growth 12-17 years old. I am not just meaning time off during the season due to injury but permanent damage due to over use. I would carefully consider extending the season as I feel it is not smart long term for these boys. Having said that I like the concept of being much more faithful to the clubs as I feel currently there are too many people out the for themselves (sorry it often looks like the parents, who I think need to stop living through there children) and really get behind their seniors. Seniors also need to start getting behind their juniors too, they want support, well go and start speaking to the kids and visit training or games occasionally, young boys love having a hero. Don't cut young boys out who have a summer sport and don't want to give that up, people who ask for kids to choose might not always the result they want, and what about the parents versus what the kids want? I really don't think this is in the kids best interest, it is all about the clubs we need a better mix of both. I would not be surprised if a lot of people left the sport as they would have concerns that the children were being cut off from other sports, also soccer season really effects families as there is so much pressure to always be there for training and games.

What about doing a blend of both, having numerous weekends throughout the season where the juniors are playing based around the new concept and then playing based around the current one it would mix up who they are playing and give lots of opportunities for seeing different clubs.

I would agree the pitches will not be able to take it, my sons game this morning was far too slippery and really made a mess after we played.

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Re: New Junior Structure 2014

Post by Željko Jurin »

Didn't the senior league start in Feb, and conclude this weekend ?

7 months yeh ?
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Re: New Junior Structure 2014

Post by SID »

Just my 2 cents worth.... All we are doing by these changes, not so much the leagues but with playing style and new rules to allow teams to play ...
All we are doing is killing the coaching , when do coaches get put under pressure to change things coz it's not going right ?
Just my thought

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Re: New Junior Structure 2014

Post by NTS »

Željko Jurin wrote:Didn't the senior league start in Feb, and conclude this weekend ?

7 months yeh ?


Yes but when does cricket or athletics finish? We have kids that are excelling in these sports (and others) also playing soccer - they have opportunities to go to national comps in these sports too that go into March and April- they are too young to make choices!!!! And at this level SHOULD be able to succeed there too, also what everyone has forgotten a lot are doing both and what about their school work when are they going to get time to this.

I will also go back to the fact that most families have more than one child doing sport!! Throw school sport in which is still in the summer season and you have children that don't know what they are doing!!!

Also the coaches are going to be under a lot of time pressure with with their own families.


Lets have better soccer not more and more and more it could possibly make it too hard for a lot of kids out there - quality not quantity!

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Re: New Junior Structure 2014

Post by Željko Jurin »

Ask the majority what they would like ...
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Re: New Junior Structure 2014

Post by NgongotahaFC »

Taking out Eastern United (who are bottom) and Western Toros who left the North League how many games did you win by over 10?

Like the team you played last week, we also had a similar experience with tackles from behind.
matty2323 wrote:
Four-3-3 wrote:Does it really matter what league your juniors play in as long as the coaching staff are developing players......? I have learned that in the lower leagues there are some challenges you have to come accross when trying to develop players and teams, but in general, development will occur if managed correctly in any league when win at all costs is removed.
Ill give you an example: under 12's zones. (im familar with it because i coach u12's at playford)

u12 JPL Blue (top 2 vs bottom 2)
1. Raiders P15 W14 D1 L0 F166 A7 GD159 Points43
2. Playford P15 W12 D2 L1 F94 A14 GD80 Points38
9. Eastern P12 W1 D0 L11 F8 A82 GD-74 Points3
10. Western Toros P18 W0 D0 L18 F2 A155 GD-153 Points0

U12 JPL Red (top 2 vs bottom 2)
1. Birkalla P13 W13 L0 D0 F90 A11 GD79 Points39
2. Cumberland P13 W11 L2 D0 F67 A9 GD58 Points 33
8. Cobras P12 W2 L10 D0 F13 A80 GD-67 Points6
9. Sturt P14 W1 L13 D0 F6 A93 GD-87 Points3

U12 JPL Yellow (top 2 vs bottom 2)
1. Comets P13 W11 L1 D1 F44 A18 GD26 Points34
2. MetroStars P13 W9 L4 D0 F58 A41 GD17 Points27
8. White City P13 W3 L9 D1 F25 A52 GD-27 Points10
9. Western Strikers P14 W1 L9 D4 F24 A68 GD-44 Points7

Now normally its top 4 from each zone to create the 13A division. Now, JPL Yellow is considered the hardest league. Teams are quite even and each and every game is hard fought (as you can see by the For and Against stats in the goals columns). Compare that to Blue, Raiders and Playford, with Enfield are vastly superior to the rest of the competition. My boys play games where they're 10-0 up at half time. Ive seen Raiders win by 20 goals or more. Who does this benefit? No-one. But because Playfords 1st team (which i also play in) is in the State League, my kids are now forced to compete with the bottom sides of each zone? There may be 2-3 good teams in the whole division, then rest are 15-20 goal wins. No matter how good of a coach you're, no matter how much you focus on development, kids need to be tested in game situations. Playing in hard games (which is normally associated with the A division) week in week out test kids skill level, awareness and their ability to play the game at a high intensity/tempo.

Kids get bored of these huge wins. I have players asking to come off when we're 15-0 because they genuinely feel embarrassed and sorry for the other kids. They stop tackling cause they feel bad. Does this help their development? The whole point behind promotion and relegation and junior levels is to ensure the best teams in that particular age group are competing against each other...

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Re: New Junior Structure 2014

Post by NTS »

Željko Jurin wrote:Ask the majority what they would like ...


I hear what you are saying BUT please consider what I am saying too - we are trying to grow soccer when AFL is a very strong pull, are we truly trying to get more players and open it up or are we keeping it clicky.

Soccer in Adelaide has a reputation of being very much who you know and how much you sponsor some of that is deserved and some of it isn't. But is this going to further put new people off, we need them and we need to be seen to be opening it up to all. A longer season will put new people off but yes you will still get the soccer parents that are passionate of course they will go but what about the parent considering it will they change their mind and say it is all too hard, it's an important consideration.

Parents also have other children and what if they have them doing change over with say 3 children that is just insane.

Also what about coaches - there are excellent coaches out there who are put off as well

It goes back to QUALITY not quantity

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Re: New Junior Structure 2014

Post by give us a break »

Football, if played at a high level, needs a considerable amount of dedication. In most places in the world it is played all year round, with a break of about 3 months. For many kids I know, the end of the season is a sad moment, they'd rather play on and on and on - they certainly have an impatient wait for the next season to start again.
But I do acknowledge that not everybody thinks like that. For these kids, there is school soccer and maybe the JSL could be modelled to suit players who have a maximal focus of a 6 to 7 months season.
That's why this discussion is important and I sincerely hope that this is a consultation process - and not, as I fear, the usual FFA/FFSA way to say: that's how we do it!
Sir, I may not agree with what you say, but I shall defend to the death your right to be a complete fool. - Voltaire

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Re: New Junior Structure 2014

Post by NTS »

give us a break wrote:Football, if played at a high level, needs a considerable amount of dedication. In most places in the world it is played all year round, with a break of about 3 months. For many kids I know, the end of the season is a sad moment, they'd rather play on and on and on - they certainly have an impatient wait for the next season to start again.
But I do acknowledge that not everybody thinks like that. For these kids, there is school soccer and maybe the JSL could be modelled to suit players who have a maximal focus of a 6 to 7 months season.
That's why this discussion is important and I sincerely hope that this is a consultation process - and not, as I fear, the usual FFA/FFSA way to say: that's how we do it!


You make a good point, BUT are we trying to capture kids too young. Is the it a mistake to only consider the top 5% and what are we doing to them if it does not work out. You risk missing out on seeing kids that are not there yet but will be and ruining kids that have peaked.

My son is very good at soccer and this is not me living through him, he has gotten close to all sorts of things but we think he is too young still and he is in JPL etc etc. he also excels in other sports and in the position of being in the top 5 in the state for that sport as well as having a private coach. There have been 2 other sports that wanted him but we said no as he is too young. Yes he loves soccer but he loves his summer sport to just as much. His whole life is loving sport always has a ball etc and he is quite young. Soccer has not always been good to him with some below board behavior/politics etc

Can you give me advice on what you would do?

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Re: New Junior Structure 2014

Post by Željko Jurin »

give us a break wrote:Football, if played at a high level, needs a considerable amount of dedication. In most places in the world it is played all year round, with a break of about 3 months. For many kids I know, the end of the season is a sad moment, they'd rather play on and on and on - they certainly have an impatient wait for the next season to start again.
But I do acknowledge that not everybody thinks like that. For these kids, there is school soccer and maybe the JSL could be modelled to suit players who have a maximal focus of a 6 to 7 months season.
That's why this discussion is important and I sincerely hope that this is a consultation process - and not, as I fear, the usual FFA/FFSA way to say: that's how we do it!
I'm not sure where you get the 3 month break thing from ?

I can speak for what happens in Croatia .... They have 4-6 weeks off in Summer, a couple of weeks off over Christmas, and in winter they train indoors
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Re: New Junior Structure 2014

Post by Željko Jurin »

NTS wrote:
give us a break wrote:Football, if played at a high level, needs a considerable amount of dedication. In most places in the world it is played all year round, with a break of about 3 months. For many kids I know, the end of the season is a sad moment, they'd rather play on and on and on - they certainly have an impatient wait for the next season to start again.
But I do acknowledge that not everybody thinks like that. For these kids, there is school soccer and maybe the JSL could be modelled to suit players who have a maximal focus of a 6 to 7 months season.
That's why this discussion is important and I sincerely hope that this is a consultation process - and not, as I fear, the usual FFA/FFSA way to say: that's how we do it!


You make a good point, BUT are we trying to capture kids too young. Is the it a mistake to only consider the top 5% and what are we doing to them if it does not work out. You risk missing out on seeing kids that are not there yet but will be and ruining kids that have peaked.

My son is very good at soccer and this is not me living through him, he has gotten close to all sorts of things but we think he is too young still and he is in JPL etc etc. he also excels in other sports and in the position of being in the top 5 in the state for that sport as well as having a private coach. There have been 2 other sports that wanted him but we said no as he is too young. Yes he loves soccer but he loves his summer sport to just as much. His whole life is loving sport always has a ball etc and he is quite young. Soccer has not always been good to him with some below board behavior/politics etc

Can you give me advice on what you would do?
In most of the rest of the world, kids don't have the luxury of being able to do 2 or 3 sports, they pick one and go with it
I would say that would also be the case with 90% of kids playing in SA .... they don't have a problem playing longer seasons (we're talking 6-8 weeks longer)

Even if its 80%, do we not play longer seasons because 10-20% of kids 'might' do other sports that clash
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Re: New Junior Structure 2014

Post by ikon »

you just have to work out where you fit in....

Clubs that don't have a clear 5 year strategy will struggle.

I think taking the pressure off junior coaches with promotion/relegation will encourage a more attacking, less fearful approach.
less playing for a result mentality...points really wont matter now in junior games.

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Re: New Junior Structure 2014

Post by The moyesiah »

They need to scrap the JSL for this to work, otherwise players will go to PL JSL teams as they will be better than the SL.

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Re: New Junior Structure 2014

Post by The moyesiah »

ikon wrote:you just have to work out where you fit in....

Clubs that don't have a clear 5 year strategy will struggle.

I think taking the pressure off junior coaches with promotion/relegation will encourage a more attacking, less fearful approach.
less playing for a result mentality...points really wont matter now in junior games.
it won't make a scrap of difference, coaches, clubs & players will still want to win these leagues, unless they plan to not even have a ladder, or points at all.

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Re: New Junior Structure 2014

Post by ikon »

NTS wrote:
give us a break wrote:Football, if played at a high level, needs a considerable amount of dedication. In most places in the world it is played all year round, with a break of about 3 months. For many kids I know, the end of the season is a sad moment, they'd rather play on and on and on - they certainly have an impatient wait for the next season to start again.
But I do acknowledge that not everybody thinks like that. For these kids, there is school soccer and maybe the JSL could be modelled to suit players who have a maximal focus of a 6 to 7 months season.
That's why this discussion is important and I sincerely hope that this is a consultation process - and not, as I fear, the usual FFA/FFSA way to say: that's how we do it!


You make a good point, BUT are we trying to capture kids too young. Is the it a mistake to only consider the top 5% and what are we doing to them if it does not work out. You risk missing out on seeing kids that are not there yet but will be and ruining kids that have peaked.

My son is very good at soccer and this is not me living through him, he has gotten close to all sorts of things but we think he is too young still and he is in JPL etc etc. he also excels in other sports and in the position of being in the top 5 in the state for that sport as well as having a private coach. There have been 2 other sports that wanted him but we said no as he is too young. Yes he loves soccer but he loves his summer sport to just as much. His whole life is loving sport always has a ball etc and he is quite young. Soccer has not always been good to him with some below board behavior/politics etc

Can you give me advice on what you would do?

there comes an age where one sport suffers due to lack desire...kids dont burn out they lose desire...he will lose the desire in one sport at some stage...

politics is in every sport ...i was a young w*8g playing cricket ...in summer every sport has this.

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Re: New Junior Structure 2014

Post by ikon »

The moyesiah wrote:
ikon wrote:you just have to work out where you fit in....

Clubs that don't have a clear 5 year strategy will struggle.

I think taking the pressure off junior coaches with promotion/relegation will encourage a more attacking, less fearful approach.
less playing for a result mentality...points really wont matter now in junior games.
it won't make a scrap of difference, coaches, clubs & players will still want to win these leagues, unless they plan to not even have a ladder, or points at all.

no ladder suits me.....a cup gives those intent in winning something , something to play for .

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Re: New Junior Structure 2014

Post by give us a break »

Željko Jurin wrote:
give us a break wrote:Football, if played at a high level, needs a considerable amount of dedication. In most places in the world it is played all year round, with a break of about 3 months. For many kids I know, the end of the season is a sad moment, they'd rather play on and on and on - they certainly have an impatient wait for the next season to start again.
But I do acknowledge that not everybody thinks like that. For these kids, there is school soccer and maybe the JSL could be modelled to suit players who have a maximal focus of a 6 to 7 months season.
That's why this discussion is important and I sincerely hope that this is a consultation process - and not, as I fear, the usual FFA/FFSA way to say: that's how we do it!
I'm not sure where you get the 3 month break thing from ?

I can speak for what happens in Croatia .... They have 4-6 weeks off in Summer, a couple of weeks off over Christmas, and in winter they train indoors
I am talking about the playing season (excl. pre season) - In Europe most leagues finish in May and restart in August.
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Re: New Junior Structure 2014

Post by themessenger »

develop wrote:Not like the FFSA to NOT consult with anyone.

Think about it a bit harder:
1 Pre-season starting in Nov/Dec - OHS issues, competing with cricket, summer sports
2 Grounds - dual purpose, cricket summer v soccer winter
3 30 game season - how many pitches can take that
4 Club coaches/volunteers - 10/11 month season, work commitments, time needed at club, wages, power bills
5 Losing games = losing players, cancelling games, teams dropping out
6 Attracting players - higher fees in PL v AFL fees, less attractive in State league
7 Increasing fees - more games, longer season = more junior fees for cash strapped parents

Please add to the list and maybe we can use them to challenge this proposal
Here's a couple more........

8. HEAT POLICY: Football is historically a winter sport - to accommodate more rounds, the juniors would have to mirror the seniors and start in February. That means matches called off because of heat - in addition to matches postponed during winter because of unplayable pitches. When do all those games get played?

9. COST TO CLUBS: Hire of grounds, additional referee fees, linemarking (paint) and other consumables, etc are all costs that will increase exponentially with a longer playing season, yet many parents can ill afford to pay more in playing fees. How will clubs recoup these additional costs?


Let's face it, the FFSA has already made their decision and as usual, clubs will just have to wear it or opt out.

fossil
Bench Warmer
Bench Warmer
Posts: 825
Joined: Tue Feb 27, 2007 11:18 pm

Re: New Junior Structure 2014

Post by fossil »

will parents tire of this? SL club parents have 2 kids in same club 1 in junior 1 in senior must travel 2 days on w/e, e.g. they travel south from the north then the following week have to travel 2 days to pirie can you see some one missing out if the clubs can't play juniors on the same day due to not having pitches or will all clubs have to have multiple pitches including fences to allow games?

will club coaches who have no kids at a club have their own ambishion to get the best of kids want to coach just for a result without being able to test themselfs against the best coaches of the PL?

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