Cumberland's Fall and who gains - Fulham and Comets

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The General
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Re: Cumberland's Fall and who gains - Fulham and Comets

Post by The General »

Are they doing away with the State League ? no Croydon, Para Hills Knights have gone to Division 1, will the FFSA have an expanded WNPL ( include CUWFC and Salisbury Utd ) play each other twice ?

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Re: Cumberland's Fall and who gains - Fulham and Comets

Post by BAGGIO 15 »

The General wrote:Are they doing away with the State League ? no Croydon, Para Hills Knights have gone to Division 1, will the FFSA have an expanded WNPL ( include CUWFC and Salisbury Utd ) play each other twice ?
Is there suitable quality in the league to go to 10 team?

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Re: Cumberland's Fall and who gains - Fulham and Comets

Post by billy the kid »

NO there isn't

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Re: Cumberland's Fall and who gains - Fulham and Comets

Post by The General »

if the ffsa players went back to their clubs and not poached by already strong clubs, and the rest of the talent was more evenly spread there would be.

Some of the players I have seen on the Reserves team list ( including ex W league players ) would get a full WNPL game at other clubs, and the players around them will develop and learn.

But that aint going to happen.

Would struggle for the first few games but would become very competitive, particularly with the inclusion of some of their Juniors as well, looking at CUWFC, Comets and Fulham have some outstanding Under 17s.
Or we just go back to the boring same 3 clubs fighting it out among themselves ?

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Re: Cumberland's Fall and who gains - Fulham and Comets

Post by Brenton T »

Interesting comments General. Here are my views.
FFSA players? Do you mean the NTC cohort? If so, it's is up to them and their parents to decide where to go. Cumberland banked on remaining in the WNPL in 2019 and that all the players in the NTC that were previously with them would return to the fold.

With regards to the poaching? You can only back up an approach to a player of note (NTC or other) if your tack record shows that you are serious about women’s football and have the structure in place to develop a player (young or old). IT’s not poaching as you say it’s just the lazy teams of Cumberland Fulham who have done little to improve and have paid the price. This season Cumberland next season Fulham will go.

Calling the top 3 play off as boring is another thing. Do I want to see the same teams dominate? Of course not. Salisbury and Uni had a chance to build on a decent 2017 season however, both had coach and personnel changes that meant they struggled somewhat. I’m certain they will get back into the swing. Salisbury need to stop splashing cash and focus on developing a strong team culture.

Lazy, ineffectual teams don’t attract/retain good players. In the old days there was no relegation so the lazy teams were a haven for players who wanted a premier league gig without the effort.

For me, Westies, City and Metro have worked very hard to put in place a structure to develop a strong team based on a strong support structure and don’t to be falling away. They will attract the best and I applaud that. Is it poaching or hard work? I think the latter.

Fulham have made lazy choices and do little to attract quality. Money only takes you so far. It saved relegation but fulham need to be serious about their women’s program and get some stability. Cumberland needs some direction and with off field changes this will occur.

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Re: Cumberland's Fall and who gains - Fulham and Comets

Post by OldSchool »

I thought there was a system in place whereby every player nominated by a club to play WNPL carries points according to their experience and you can only field a team with a certain amount of points, correct me if I am wrong.

If there isn't perhaps it is time there is, and if there is then perhaps they need to revisit how many points each club can carry.

Previously I have been told there either was or is a system like this in place for the NPL and that they have just brought an exact copy of it across to the WNPL. This would be fine if there was the same quantity of quality players available to the WNPL as there is for the NPL.

If the FFSA, clubs and fans want a more competitive competition then re-arranging the point system (lowering the total number of points allowed) would see more of the quality players spread across the clubs which in turn then spreads their experience. Over a period, their presence around younger player will have a positive outcome and the quality of the playing stock across the system will improve. And a truly competitive league should evolve.

A scenario like this would also challenge the quality of coaches, coaches will have to develop players and squads. They won’t be able to sit back and benefit from the hard work of others.

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Re: Cumberland's Fall and who gains - Fulham and Comets

Post by Hydration Officer »

Good discussion, keep it going
Reading between the lines I reckon what Old School's comments are similar to what The General was trying to say, maybe in more detail.
Not that the football was boring, but having the same 3 teams every year contesting the top ,maybe predictable is a better word than boring.
I also think the talent is there, if it was more evenly spread the game as a whole will benefit.
Not sure about the points system? is it working ?
FFSA /NTC whatever , should they be allowed to play in the WNPL ?
How does it work ? Are the girls promised the world ?
Are some of our WNPL coaches becoming Managers, are they recruiting players other clubs have developed ?

The last couple of sentences Old School makes, sums it all up - for that to happen changes will need to be made.
As for players jumping ship, why would they go to a higher club and risk not getting a full game every week, when can they stay where they are and help their club, rather then come off the bench for another team, as we saw earlier this year when a WNPL player switched clubs just before the transfer deadline, to be used as a substitute most games.

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Re: Cumberland's Fall and who gains - Fulham and Comets

Post by juniorsupporter »

The player points system for the WNPL can be found here, in Appendix 1:

http://websites.sportstg.com/get_file.cgi?id=35746949

It is the same in principal as the men’s, but is different in how points are assessed because the women’s comp has traditionally had trouble keeping older players, where the men’s comp has a problem with bringing youth through.

Although I think this is off topic.

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Re: Cumberland's Fall and who gains - Fulham and Comets

Post by billy the kid »

Spot on Junior. And from what I have seen and heard, it does work. So for mine, I wouldn't be trying to restrict player recruitment or movement by any other means.

If its boring to have the same teams up there then so be it. It highlights the inaction by some clubs however, it doesn't spell disaster. I think the likes of Uni and Salisbury Inter, we will see a stabilising of their squads and coaching and the results will be a resurgence up the ladder. They are both good clubs/teams.

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Re: Cumberland's Fall and who gains - Fulham and Comets

Post by Red Dragon 53 »

I am not seeing anything on the ffsa website that suggests cumberland has avoided relegation...Can anyone shed any light on this?

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Re: Cumberland's Fall and who gains - Fulham and Comets

Post by billy the kid »

Neither have I read anything that confirms this to be the case. I would be very happy to see them remain in the WNPL.

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Re: Cumberland's Fall and who gains - Fulham and Comets

Post by Armadillo »

I have seen no confirmation of this 'rumour' either and an email sent out today from the FFSA would inherently imply Cumberland will not stay in the WNPL but will be a Div 1 side.

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Re: Cumberland's Fall and who gains - Fulham and Comets

Post by SAD GAL »

There is some confusion out there. Cumberland is out there spruiking them remaining in the WNPL and you saying they're dropped down a level. Someone's wrong. Cumberland have been making public announcements about coaches, presidents etc. and on that basis securing players (current and new) as a result of them remaining in the WNPL.

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Re: Cumberland's Fall and who gains - Fulham and Comets

Post by BAGGIO 15 »

I’ve read the letter to clubs.

Will be announced by FFSA very soon that the WNPL will remain 8 teams, along with other changes.

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Re: Cumberland's Fall and who gains - Fulham and Comets

Post by Armadillo »

That was my understanding also, perhaps the club was clutching on to a small hope or an attempt to retain players whilst waiting for a decision. I would expect many of these players to leave at the prospect of playing Div 1, so Fulham and Comets may still prosper

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Re: Cumberland's Fall and who gains - Fulham and Comets

Post by Pitchy »

Apparently only 3 WNPL players turned up to the meeting the club held to introduce the new WNPL coaches....i think that speaks volumes.

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Re: Cumberland's Fall and who gains - Fulham and Comets

Post by nathanburns15 »

Someone posted this elsewhere
Due to these circumstances FFSA proposes the following changes for Season 2019 and 2020;

WNPL will be extended to 9 teams, with Cumberland United maintaining their position. The format of the league will be provided in due course;
Teams that were in State League and are going to continue in 2019 will be placed into Division 1;
The 10th position in the WNPL may be filled either by the team that wins Division 1 ( if they do not have a WNPL Team and meet all requirements of the WNPL) or through a nomination process (meeting all of the WNPL requirements);
FFSA will reassess the viability of reintroducing the State League at the conclusion of the 2020 season.

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Re: Cumberland's Fall and who gains - Fulham and Comets

Post by Armadillo »

I believe that to be an earlier outdated proposal.
Perhaps Cumberland can use this time not as a negative but rather, as an opportunity to develop their strong juniors into a strong senior side. If they were to remain WNPL having lost current NPL players and not being attractive to outside players next season would result in an even less successful season that this one.

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Re: Cumberland's Fall and who gains - Fulham and Comets

Post by OldSchool »

1st question that needs to be answered is will there be a State League or not.

If there is no State league and the FFSA chooses to send Cumby back to Div 1 then the remaining strong seniors will most likely leave and Cumbies strong juniors will make no difference to the clubs future no aspirational Junior will stay at a club to play Div 1. I can confidently say that the U17's squad that has just won the League and Cup this season (most of the girls are due to move or are capable of moving to seniors) would most likely stay if the club was in SL but in Divs they will most likely scatter. And once gone they are not going to come back to help them if Cumby was ever to be successful in gaining promotion out of Div to Prem again. Its a vicious circle. A cynical person might say that is exactly what the FFSA and other clubs want, shut down the the SL just to prop up the struggling Prems club instead of telling them to go and work harder.

I would agree that if there was relegation to SL then it would be the best place for the upcoming juniors to cut their teeth in a permanent seniors setting. But by the sounds of the noise coming from this forum from people who seem to be in the know its all the way to Div 1 for all State League clubs.

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Re: Cumberland's Fall and who gains - Fulham and Comets

Post by juniorsupporter »

It seems to me that Div I is just State League renamed- there are obviously differences- no reserves sides or requirement to have juniors. And the addition of Uni, Stirling Districts and Metro, but uni and Metro can’t be promoted as their clubs already have Prems sides. I’d say life is now considerably easier for the likes
Of Jaguars, Salisbury United and Western Strikers as they don’t have to worry about fielding reserves- looks like a pretty compelling competition to me. The State League was never truly viable, struggled from the beginning.

Not sure what the big deal is, aside from Cumberland’s relegation out of the WNPL.

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Re: Cumberland's Fall and who gains - Fulham and Comets

Post by OldSchool »

That would work Div 1 taking over from SL only if there is never to be promotions to Prems, you can't expect a club that only has a 1 Div team and no reserves to find or create a reserve team out of thin air so they can compete in the prems the following season. The only way you can make promotion from Div 1 to Prems viable is if you scrape reserves in Prems as well.

The problem with having no relegation in the Prems is the clubs become complacent as happened to Sturt and Cumby and to a lesser degree Fulham. It may help to improve the Prems short term but over a longer coarse with less teams trying to compete at elite level less elite level players will be produced. So over the longer term it will harm the local league not improve it

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Re: Cumberland's Fall and who gains - Fulham and Comets

Post by BAGGIO 15 »

There is 1 promotion spot from Div 1 to WNPL.
2 promotional spots for each Div below Div 1.
Former state league teams will field their reserves in Div 4.
This will lead to a stronger focus in Div 4, not sure its the right league for reserves players that are traditionally young as Div 4 seems well below their standard.
I expect clubs to use Div2 or 3 for their reserve sides as I feel that offers a better development environment.

Lets wait and see.

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Re: Cumberland's Fall and who gains - Fulham and Comets

Post by Hydration Officer »

So, in what is suppose to be a celebratory time in women's football in this state, after 40 years of competition, this is what is being dealt to the clubs.
For what my comment is worth this is definitely not one of their finest proposals by the decision makers.
I don't put all the blame on FFSA as we will never know how much influence the FFA have in all of this.

I was at one of the womens club meetings towards the end of last year, and a comment was allegedly made by one of the decision makers along the lines ..."wouldn't it be great to have all WNPL clubs aligned with a Men's NPL club"
If this is what the FFSA are aiming for, at what expense ?
To be it seems a bit of a mess, apparently Salisbury United were told if they won their playoff matches, were not going into the WNPL anyway, why bother having the playoffs ? Did Fulham save FFSA from an embarrassing scenario ?
In best interest of the game, I would suggest WNPL 2019 have ten teams play each other twice, or at worst 9 team league with bye play each other 3 times.Or remove the bye by getting rid of FFSA NTC team, and those players go back to their clubs - most would argue they do not meet the requirements to field a WNPL team
If CUWFC retain most the players, plus the addition of some juniors, and any new players the new coaches may happen to bring, they will be competitive - I say that going by and looking at their last game with a makeshift side,they had a good result against Salisbury Inter.
If some of their players leave where are they going to ? Their former Captain went to another club struggled to get a full game every week ?
Instead of talking about players going to other clubs, should we be encouraging them to stay to help the young ones coming through, I thought that is how you develop players ?
Some people don't understand when players leave, their is a greater impact, not just the player - parents as well, mom who make great Team Managers or help in the canteen, dads who often run the line or assist at training, all of a sudden there is shortage of helpers
We have already seen one great club fall by the wayside, don't want to see anymore.
Enuff said.

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Re: Cumberland's Fall and who gains - Fulham and Comets

Post by Armadillo »

Although I agree that this is a tough decision by the FFSA.... I also do not see why a club that has danced with relegation for years and become complacent should be offered the luxury of remaining in the WNPL.
If players leave they will serve to bolster other clubs that have worked hard to develop good club direction (ie uni, comets, Salisbury)

regarding the comment on the captains departure, whilst I think it easy to criticize, I also believe nearly every player in the league plays football to have fun and enjoy the environment they are in. from what I observed, this player looked greatly happier at her new club and as a parent I was somewhat relieved to see her simply enjoying the game again and making both the final series sides.
As for the other players at the club, I do not believe they either enjoyed or developed this season.
You say if the players remain buffed by a few juniors they will be "competitive" but also then state they will not be able to make other sides. if they apparently aren't good enough to make other sides (I disagree, I believe many of these could help sides outside the top 4) how do you propose this could make an even remotely competitive side? unless by competitive you mean fighting amongst the bottom 3 yet again?..I do not see any of those players having fun repeating the same scenario as has been the last 3 years for this club.

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Re: Cumberland's Fall and who gains - Fulham and Comets

Post by BAGGIO 15 »

Interesting were this debate is going.

Cumberland have had strong juniors for some time I believe.
With that in mind if you look back over the last 9 years I believe you will find that Cumberland have finished in the bottom 2 every season bar 1.
It goes to show that the gap between juniors and seniors is massive and many find it difficult to make the jump to senior football.
This will obviously be for many reason's, but repeating the cycle will not aid Cumberland to become competitive.

Relegation offers a chance to develop their players at a level where they will find it easier to compete may lead to the required improvement in enough so that when they are next promoted they find it easier to compete.
Like most of us we only notice results and have no genuine insight into the real workings of the club.
We are simply deriving possible reasons for results based, often on rumor or the perception of others we chat to.
They have new leadership so they have a chance to rebuild.

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Re: Cumberland's Fall and who gains - Fulham and Comets

Post by The General »

interesting times ahead for the ffsa - you talk about how good Ade Uni and Salis Inter are doing, looking at the results for this year, without being disrespectful to both clubs, just using as a comparison, Ade Uni only won 4 out of their last 12 games, Salisbury Inter won 1 out of their last 11 games and off course Fulham and Cumberland below them.
Does this highlight the gap between the top 3 clubs and the rest ? I do not include FFSA/NTC, as I do not think they should be there.

I am thinking the people at Cumberland accepted the fact they were relegated to the State League, and were putting things in place to come straight back up again, but now that the leagues are being restructured, that is a different story,
If the competition is going to be restructured, you would think it would be to encourage growth in the game all areas, where ALL clubs will thrive and attract players .

My concern is, I have seen in the past where you have too many players go to the same clubs to try out and if they don't make it, some give the game away take up another sport.

What are people going to think, if there is no team, south of the city, competing in the WNPL, in what will be 41st season, it would tell me there is something very wrong .

In my opinion, would be a insult, if in a revamped competition one of the former great clubs is not in the WNPL 2019.
How are Cumberland going to keep their players, let alone attract players.
Is there a lack of loyalty in the women's game ?

I don't believe in this telling them to go to other clubs, and if they get promoted back into the WNPL those players come back, I would make them earn their spot.

Here you have a club that may have created history, winning all 3 Junior Cup age groups, winning all 3 Junior age league championships - has that ever been done before by boys or girls club ? in Australia ? around the world ?
For the game to continue grow and prosper the competition needs CUWFC in the WNPL 2019.

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Re: Cumberland's Fall and who gains - Fulham and Comets

Post by Brenton T »

Very salient points you have raised.
The General wrote:interesting times ahead for the ffsa - you talk about how good Ade Uni and Salis Inter are doing, looking at the results for this year, without being disrespectful to both clubs, just using as a comparison, Ade Uni only won 4 out of their last 12 games, Salisbury Inter won 1 out of their last 11 games and off course Fulham and Cumberland below them.
Does this highlight the gap between the top 3 clubs and the rest ? I do not include FFSA/NTC, as I do not think they should be there.

I am thinking the people at Cumberland accepted the fact they were relegated to the State League, and were putting things in place to come straight back up again, but now that the leagues are being restructured, that is a different story,
If the competition is going to be restructured, you would think it would be to encourage growth in the game all areas, where ALL clubs will thrive and attract players .

My concern is, I have seen in the past where you have too many players go to the same clubs to try out and if they don't make it, some give the game away take up another sport.

What are people going to think, if there is no team, south of the city, competing in the WNPL, in what will be 41st season, it would tell me there is something very wrong .

In my opinion, would be a insult, if in a revamped competition one of the former great clubs is not in the WNPL 2019.
How are Cumberland going to keep their players, let alone attract players.
Is there a lack of loyalty in the women's game ?

I don't believe in this telling them to go to other clubs, and if they get promoted back into the WNPL those players come back, I would make them earn their spot.

Here you have a club that may have created history, winning all 3 Junior Cup age groups, winning all 3 Junior age league championships - has that ever been done before by boys or girls club ? in Australia ? around the world ?
For the game to continue grow and prosper the competition needs CUWFC in the WNPL 2019.

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Re: Cumberland's Fall and who gains - Fulham and Comets

Post by BAGGIO 15 »

Brenton T wrote:Very salient points you have raised.
The General wrote:interesting times ahead for the ffsa - you talk about how good Ade Uni and Salis Inter are doing, looking at the results for this year, without being disrespectful to both clubs, just using as a comparison, Ade Uni only won 4 out of their last 12 games, Salisbury Inter won 1 out of their last 11 games and off course Fulham and Cumberland below them.
Does this highlight the gap between the top 3 clubs and the rest ? I do not include FFSA/NTC, as I do not think they should be there.

I am thinking the people at Cumberland accepted the fact they were relegated to the State League, and were putting things in place to come straight back up again, but now that the leagues are being restructured, that is a different story,
If the competition is going to be restructured, you would think it would be to encourage growth in the game all areas, where ALL clubs will thrive and attract players .

My concern is, I have seen in the past where you have too many players go to the same clubs to try out and if they don't make it, some give the game away take up another sport.

What are people going to think, if there is no team, south of the city, competing in the WNPL, in what will be 41st season, it would tell me there is something very wrong .

In my opinion, would be a insult, if in a revamped competition one of the former great clubs is not in the WNPL 2019.
How are Cumberland going to keep their players, let alone attract players.
Is there a lack of loyalty in the women's game ?

I don't believe in this telling them to go to other clubs, and if they get promoted back into the WNPL those players come back, I would make them earn their spot.

Here you have a club that may have created history, winning all 3 Junior Cup age groups, winning all 3 Junior age league championships - has that ever been done before by boys or girls club ? in Australia ? around the world ?
For the game to continue grow and prosper the competition needs CUWFC in the WNPL 2019.

Every club will have a poor season from time to time, they will then need to fix their problems to bounce back the following season.
Lets see how Uni, Salisbury and Fulham cope in 2019 before we use them as an example.

I'm surprised people continue to confuse juniors and seniors.

There are example of strong clubs in the men's game at junior level that do not equate to senior success.
Are Cumberland the Para Hills of the female game?
(Para Hills have produced more Adelaide United players and Young Socceroo's then any SA club yet lose their best to bigger clubs)

Also Clubs in SA have won the old U19, Reserves and Super League (Premier League)
This has also happened in many age groups in junior boys where a club wins 4-5 championships of the available age brackets, that each consist of up to 4-5 leagues JSL, JPL for example.

The girls leagues offer only 3 leagues (U13, 15 and 17) with 2 sometimes 3 divisions due to their smaller numbers so while this is impressive it needs to be kept in context.

I feel there needs to be an U19 to keep more girls in the game like in then men's.
This would allow more time for players to develop and reduce the gap between U17 and reserves.


Location should never be an issue for WNPL representation, it should always be a right that is earned.

Just my thoughts, not intending to single Cumberland out as we need them to take the next step and become stronger at senior level, no different to the states need for Campbelltown and Jaguars to become mainstays in a 10 team WNPL.

The more opportunities, the longer girls will stay involved and the stronger the states production line into W League and Matilda's will become.

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Re: Cumberland's Fall and who gains - Fulham and Comets

Post by OldSchool »

As I said in an early post on this subject, the clear majority of Cumby members accepted relegation to SL. Over time a strong belief has evolved it would be good for the club to spend a season or two in SL to regroup and get its new structures in place. The issue is not relegation but the fact that the FFSA is allegedly killing of the State League and sending Cumby back to Div 1. People will argue that Div 1 will become the new SL and you can still be promoted, but it’s as much about perception as it is reality i.e. ‘Status and Prestige’.

Good players don’t want to say they play Divs, Prems yes and SL is OK, but to say ‘Oh I’ve gone from Prems to Divs’ will be difficult for some. This will cause more players to leave the club and in turn make it more difficult to get re-promoted. They can’t rely on juniors to save them as the better juniors coming through won’t stay if they are moving up into an noncompetitive team with no chance of ever getting promoted to Prems. They will seek out clubs in the Prems even it means starting off in their Divs as it would be easier to get noticed from that position than hope to get picked up in trials and eventually get a chance to play Reserves or Prems. This will be true for any club with aspiration of being a Prems club one day.

We all have been critical of Cumby and other clubs for not investing in the future and for not having the correct structure and plans in place to develop and prepare more players to play at the elite level. This time it is the FFSA who will be the one failing to prepare, invest and commit. If it drops the SL how can they ask or expect clubs to be up to the rigors of Prems if they have nowhere to practice running and managing a 2-team structure. The SL is where clubs are meant to go and prepare for the big time. Its short sighted and poorly thought out and the only people that would agree with killing of the SL presumably are those clubs hoping to benefit from the SL being burnt off. If the FFSA thinks it can drop the SL for a couple of years and then reinstate in the belief that all the problems of the current structure will be cured by a 2-year sleep, then they are fools. They need to suck it up and except responsibility for the current condition the SL is in and fix it rather than kill it.

So why should any of today’s clubs and the ones of the future be held accountable for not having programs and structures in place if the FFSA just runs away from the SL because it’s all become too hard. The FFSA needs to ask why it has to date been a difficult model to make work and where THEY have failed and how it can it be fixed and then THEY need to fix it.

I always thought the SL was part of the plan, a slightly less developed level of football and a good spot for players and clubs to be while they learn how to be better footballers and stronger clubs. It is meant to mimic the Prems, 1st and Reserves but with less pressure i don't believe there is anyway playing Div will or can prepare a club for the leap into Prems.

For now it is all hear say because as usual the FFSA is procrastinating and won't release their decision.

They will most likely put out a press release at 4:59 Pm today as its a 3 day weekend which means they won't have to answer PH calls and email for the next 3 days, they will be hoping the heat will have died of by Tuesday morning

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Re: Cumberland's Fall and who gains - Fulham and Comets

Post by juniorsupporter »

The failure of State League is not FFSA’s fault. They had to pull the plug because teams who were in it this year requested to be moved back down to Div I and no teams from Div I wanted to move up. The clubs found it too difficult to meet criteria, specifically to field two senior sides. Some clubs didn’t have reserves all season, from my understanding. How is that the fault of FFSA?

That competition struggled from the beginning. All three years saw an uneven competition with clubs struggling to field reserves. And there were only ever 6 teams in the comp. Comets was the only club in the comp with structures in place to move up to Prems, because the club had them in place for the men and made a solid commitment to girls and women’s football. None of the other clubs in State League did that, whether unable or unwilling.

As I said before, I don’t think the death of State League is all that big a deal. Clubs can build numbers, operate a senior team in a lower division (reserves) and add junior teams just the same. They can gain promotion to WNPL. If clubs are aspirational it’s up to them to sell that to the players. My money’s on Cumby to do just that.

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