Cumberland's Fall and who gains - Fulham and Comets

[billy the kid]

What usually happens (not always) is that when a team drops from WNPL that a lot of the players get approached or jump ships to another WNPL team. This is what killed off Para Hills in 2017 and I suspect the same may occur with Cumby.

Beneficiaries from Cumby?

1) Comets
2) Fulham
3) Salisbury
4) Uni

[Rightside]

I think there would be a good portion of Cumberland players that would stick around and fight to get their club back into WNPL - they appear to have a good culture and players willing to stick it out - even with their coach and captain leaving the team didn't fall apart they continued to fight and be competitive in games.

[juniorsupporter]

Agreed Rightside- there may be one or two young, aspirational players that will move, but they’ll have to work their way into a starting spot wherever they go. Where relegation will really hurt Cumberland is getting back players that have aged out of NTC. There are several former Cumby players who will be looking for clubs. I don’t think they’d be likely to join a state league side. A lot will depend on who Cumby gets to coach the first team.

[Brenton T]

It's a hard spot to be in when your team is relegated. Yes I think some will stay on and that's a good thing. The NTC players eligible to return are likely to go to an WNPL club. In any case, Cumberland were banking on a whole lot of ex Cumberland players returning to the club once their NTC time was up. This is fanciful to say the least because a team at the bottom will struggle to attract. This is a challenge that will face Fulham in the off season. Recruitment will be based on what the club can offer on and off the field.

On the note of NTRC players coming back into the WNPL. My observations of this in season 2018 has been one of mixed views. I think the transition from NTC program to a WNPL side is a huge jump and challenge. Skill is one thing but maturity and an understanding to adapt to change is a requirement many players in the program struggle with.

The other thing is managing expectations. As I overheard one day from a parent "we've paid all this money in the NTC to see our daughter only play WNPL". I'm not sure what the parents and players have been sold however, I doubt the NTC coaches promise anything beyond access to top couching and support. The rest is up to the players. Like the old SAS women's football program, you can only do so much. SA is off the radar for the national selectors.

The future of Cumberland and next season Fulham is to bank on your junior development for sustained long term success. The clubs at the top are testament to this.

[Coyote]

Brenton T

Whilst I agree with some of your comments, I would like to correct you on your statement “SA is off the radar for National selectors”. Whilst the numbers of SA player have not been high in representation in the Australian teams in recent years, the following girls (I do not think I have missed any?) in the last 2-3 years have represented the national team at either Matilda level, young matildas or junior matilda level:-
Alex Chidiac
Emily Condon
Emily Hodgson
Georgia Iannella

It is my understanding that there are no coaches that come from SA that are involved in any of the Matilda teams. That does not help the cause of SA players but it certainly does not make it impossible for them to reach that standard. Like any sport, if you are good enough and committed enough, you will get to the elite level. Circumstances for some, can contribute to this taking longer than others.

[Brenton T]

Thanks Coyote and I respect your reply.

The names you have mentioned are certainly in the mix. The true test is constant representation at the senior level. ID at junior/youth matildas level is one thing however the bottleneck is whether or not the local provident from SA is going to get a regular senior spot. At the moment, Chidiac is around the mark and hence her move to Spain to further develop her craft. Sadly, as much as I LOVE the SA WNPL here, it is not sufficient enough to give the players you mentioned the level of competition form which to get to the senior Matildas. My opinion however, I don't think it's far off the mark. The old SASI (for whatever reason) program also had these challenges.

SA is right of the national selection radar. It's been the case for at least 15-20 years.

[OldSchool]

I also agree that most players will want to stay with the club, however the decision to stay or leave I believe will come down to who the club secures as coaches. What program the new coaching team can implement and the resources the club is willing to invest in. Players will need to see a very clear and strong plan on how the club can rebound straight back in the WNPL.

If the club does not show a willingness to invest, chooses the wrong coaching team and the coaches do not bring a program that challenges and develops players, and if they cannot show the playing group a path back to the WNPL then I think you will see the core group of players that they need to retain leave. It may not happen immediately as I believe the players will give a new coaching team a chance during summer training and pre-season but if they don't see an immediate improvement to the structure and planning then they will start to search for greener pastures.

There is a very solid base within the Cumberland senior ranks for a new coaching team to work with, that core group of players as I understand it want to stick together. Along with those players there is also a group of U17's who will be moving into the senior ranks next season, they are all talented footballers (and aspirational) and these young players will only strengthen the line up the new coaches will have to work with. But they to will want to see strong direction and leadership or will move on, probably quicker than the entrenched seniors. And as Juniors that have been part of representative teams they are known to coaches at other clubs, some off these players have already been approached to discuss their options next season and beyond. Cumberland needs to move fast or risk loosing more junior players that they have developed.

The following applies not only to Cumberland but all clubs that aspire to playing and succeeding at the elite level. Many of the young players across the system coming up from juniors and who will eventually take to the pitch in WNPL and SL teams across the city have most likely been part of the SAP/STIC/SIP programs, possibly part of a State Squad, NTC or Regional. While being part of these programs either in a fulltime or part time capacity they have experienced and benefited from being coached in and playing like a modern footballer. Clubs need to get over the notion that a player who has been in the state squad from their club will stay or come back out of loyalty or feeling like they owe the club something. These young players want to see coaching staff and clubs with a modern plan, structure and resources. They don't want to enter an environment where they feel like they are stuck in a club that at senior level plays an old and inefficient style of football and still trains like they did a decade ago. If they don’t get it, they’ll walk or worse leave the game all together. If you want to retain your current players and attract your players back from State or from other clubs, you need to offer them at least what they were getting or better.

It’s obvious to the grass roots supporters at Cumberland that the club/committee/coaches have not understood what was required to build competitive teams, not at senior level anyway. It’s bewildering the coaching staff and committee of the seniors where blind to it and did not adjust especially when you see the success their junior program is having, 3 teams in the cup final and all 3 teams hunting at the top of the respective leagues. Their Junior coaches are all coaching and playing in a positive and modern style.

All clubs and their committees need to understand that for every year that goes by the young players moving from juniors to seniors are expecting & demanding more, they want and expect clubs to provide the same environment that many of them were part of growing up as juniors. Most club are getting on board with teaching juniors according to the curriculum, playing possession football etc. Many senior teams however (probably due to the coaching) struggle with something as simple as using their keeper as anything more than a shot stopper. The successful clubs at WNPL and State League level have all at least tried investing in players, systems and structures that the modern player wants to be part off. The clubs that have failed to do so Sturt and Panthers suffered the ultimate fate and now Cumby is on the endangered list and if it doesn’t alter its trajectory quickly will be staring the same fate in the eyes soon.

[Brenton T]

OldSchool

I cannot put it better. Makes a lot of sense. It is no longer a case of feeling an obligation to stay rather that the WNPL has evolved to the point where the ethos at the clubs need to change and that the attraction factor goes beyond "wanting to play with my friends and nothing" else to a pathway to the W League and beyond. The WNPL is far better than where it was a decade ago.

Cumberland and I suspect Fulham will need to do some hard work in the off season. One is to get back to the WNPL in 2020 and the other is not to be the next Cumberland.

And so it should be that way. No more time for complacency.

I think Cumberland will struggle to keep the better players in its senior squads. If Comets haven't already approached them then I'd say the others will.

The off season for 2019 will, in my view, be the one that has the most movements of players between clubs.

[billy the kid]

It's a long way back to the WNPL. Cumby will need to back its youth in its quest to get back into the WNPL. Its GK is a brilliant player and there will be many teams in the WNPL that will seek her out (if not already).

There is always a team that will be relegated from the WNPL. This year its Cumby. 2019 it will be another. Uni and Salisbury weer supposed to build upon 2017 however, it shows that a change in coaches has a dramatic effect on results. The ex Cumby playters in the NTC will go to other WNPL clubs.

Fulham have the challenge to remain in the WNPL. They come up against Salisbury Untied tomorrow in the relegation/promotion play off. I suspect Fulham coaching panel will throw $$$$$$$$$ to get Jenna and Jess on the park to stave off a defeat. It's being played at Burton Park. My money is with Fulham however, the street fighters (Salisbury) are up for the challenge.

So as far as the beneficiaries of Cumby's relegation will be:

1) Uni
2) Comets.

[OldSchool]

Brenton T,

Your correct in saying the WNPL has evolved, we've (my family and I) been involved in the women's game for over 10 years now. I recall watching 'Elite Games' in the early years and thinking oh my gosh how far do they need to come. Comparing the league from then to now its been on an extraordinary journey. And the youngsters coming through the ranks are benefiting from all the hard work of the clubs and players that have put in the effort to professionalize the league, again the clubs that are suffering now have been the ones that have resisted change. The league still has a long way to go but it is moving in the right direction, would be nice if it could move faster but I suppose steady as she goes is the the safest way to go.

billy the kid

Agree their journey next year is akin to climbing a mountain and if to many players leave it will be an Everest they are trying to summit. As to who will be next to be relegated I think that may well come down to who has the least healthiest bank account, that was an obvious difference between Cumby and Fulham this season. Coaching and structure will play a key role but ability to invest will be equally important.

They do indeed need to back their juniors and engage them and secure them for next season, strangely enough not one of them has been approached to confirm their intentions for next season internal recruiting you would have thought is a good place to start.

I also agree re: the Cumby senior keeper she's a brave keeper and a good old fashioned shot stopper. I can tell you she is way underrated inside the club, yes there are parts of her game that can be improved on (but that's true for all players in any position) but that's were a quality coaching team comes in they can help her in those areas. The U17's keeper that is moving to seniors next season is also a very good keeper that the club can not afford to loose, her strengths are possible the senior keepers weakness and vice versa they would probably be able to learn from each other. Again if the club was prepared to invest in more specialist coaching for the both of them they would have a keeper line up that most club would be proud to call their own. There is that word again 'Invest'

Salisbury v Fulham for WNPL next season, here's were the healthiest bank account theory comes and that word 'Invest' appears again. I reckon Fulham will have the edge here.

[Armadillo]

It does not appear there will be fall out from Cumberland's 'relegation'. After talking to a few Cumberland.players and parents, they are under the impression that the club will not be going down as the club have appealed the relegation decision to the ffsa. Are appeals such as this one legitimate?

[billy the kid]

Appealed the relegation? On what basis?

[billy the kid]

Hey OldSchool.

excellent worded discussion. Well chosen words to explain.

I understand that this is not the forum to air the dirty linen however, there needed to be some changes at Cumberland to usher in a brighter future. Off field (my understanding) was marred by personality clashes and inappropriate behaviour from a few that spilled out for all to see at the games.

I do not think any WNPL team bank balance (maybe city) has anything to do with their ability to remain competitive. If that was the case (as inferred) then Fulham would not have been at the bottom of the WNPL for the most of 2018. I accept that Fulham tried the hail Mary play and Max snuck back in and the brought along a very highly paid (wonder how the rest of the team feels) McCormick and Nagel to stave off relegation. Guns for hire. To Cumberland's credit they did it with what they had.

Brenton T,

Your correct in saying the WNPL has evolved, we've (my family and I) been involved in the women's game for over 10 years now. I recall watching 'Elite Games' in the early years and thinking oh my gosh how far do they need to come. Comparing the league from then to now its been on an extraordinary journey. And the youngsters coming through the ranks are benefiting from all the hard work of the clubs and players that have put in the effort to professionalize the league, again the clubs that are suffering now have been the ones that have resisted change. The league still has a long way to go but it is moving in the right direction, would be nice if it could move faster but I suppose steady as she goes is the the safest way to go.

billy the kid

Agree their journey next year is akin to climbing a mountain and if to many players leave it will be an Everest they are trying to summit. As to who will be next to be relegated I think that may well come down to who has the least healthiest bank account, that was an obvious difference between Cumby and Fulham this season. Coaching and structure will play a key role but ability to invest will be equally important.

They do indeed need to back their juniors and engage them and secure them for next season, strangely enough not one of them has been approached to confirm their intentions for next season internal recruiting you would have thought is a good place to start.

I also agree re: the Cumby senior keeper she's a brave keeper and a good old fashioned shot stopper. I can tell you she is way underrated inside the club, yes there are parts of her game that can be improved on (but that's true for all players in any position) but that's were a quality coaching team comes in they can help her in those areas. The U17's keeper that is moving to seniors next season is also a very good keeper that the club can not afford to loose, her strengths are possible the senior keepers weakness and vice versa they would probably be able to learn from each other. Again if the club was prepared to invest in more specialist coaching for the both of them they would have a keeper line up that most club would be proud to call their own. There is that word again 'Invest'

Salisbury v Fulham for WNPL next season, here's were the healthiest bank account theory comes and that word 'Invest' appears again. I reckon Fulham will have the edge here.

[Armadillo]

From what was explained to me, they have appealed due to the strength of their juniors (they are one of the only wnpl clubs not just meeting but exceeding the requirement that they field a team in ever junior age group) and that they are the only southern club in the wnpl.
These parents were completely convinced they would not be going down.....
I do wonder how the FFSA will or has responded to this. Has anyone heard of relegation appeals before?

[juniorsupporter]

Cumberland has a good argument IMO, if the issue is what’s best for women’s football in SA. Winning all 3 junior cup finals certainly didn’t hurt their case. And an expanded Prems competition wouldn’t be a bad thing.

[Lucas Leiva]

Not sure that the FFSA would breach their licensing conditions because some parents are upset.

Cumberland have been very good in developing juniors over a number of years now, but they have also benefited from other southern clubs being eaten away - Sturt Marion and South Adelaide come to mind. Also, if region was an issue within the FFSA, then why have a gazillion northern and western based clubs?

You cannot reward a club for excellence at a Junior level with exceptions at a Senior level. This is counterintuitive. Cumberland have flirted with relegation for a number of years now and this cannot be the response from within their club now the axe has fallen.

[juniorsupporter]

I believe that we have reached the end of the first 3 year WNPL licensing agreement, which means the licenses are up for renewal. And terms can now be changed. And all clubs have to re-apply.

And this isn’t just about a few parents whingeing.

Lastly, just because the geographical balance of the women’s comp is uneven doesn’t mean FFSA is happy about it. I think they would much prefer a better distribution of WNPL clubs.

I don’t imagine Cumberland will be successful in their appeal unless they go in armed with a detailed plan to address their deficiencies in the senior program. That would be the very minimum required I would guess.

I understand why some would begrudge Cumberland staying up. But I don’t think any other club is being shortchanged and I think it would be beneficial for the development of the women’s game in SA.

of course this whole discussion is predicated on a development of events that we don’t know for sure is taking place. So we may be tilting at windmills here.

[juniorsupporter]

The Cobras thread adds an interesting element to this conversation...

[billy the kid]

I reckon that thread's gone. Interesting

The Cobras thread adds an interesting element to this conversation...

[Lucas Leiva]

The Cobras thread adds an interesting element to this conversation...

I don't think there's anything to it. There were clubs on here last year advertising themselves as State League sides in 2018 and they didn't even have a senior womens side at all.

[juniorsupporter]

That was fast. LOL.

In case anyone missed it, and I'm guessing that there are a fair few who did, Cobras posted a thread advertising the formation of junior girls and senior women's teams for 2019. What was remarkable was that they were advertising the formation of a WNPL side. Great that the club is aspirational, just wondering where they think the players are going to come from.

Thought the post interesting in light of our discussion of Cumberland's relegation...

[Omonia40]

Hi All,

Just to clear up any confusion;
The Cobras post has been moved to the find club/player pages.

The club is hopeful in being able to get Womens /girls football started and understands this may be difficult to achieve, especially senior teams and this has nothing to do with what has happened at other clubs.

As a start we look likely to start up an u13s girls team with existing players at the club playing miniroos and u11 & u12s girls currently playing in the boys teams.
If we get further interest would be great but fully understand that we have to start somewhere.

[juniorsupporter]

Awesome- best of luck with developing your girls and women’s programs. Reading the original post it seemed to suggest the club was looking to start an WNPL side. I apologise if I misinterpreted. It’s great that Cobras are looking to provide opportunities to more juniors and senior women.

[OldSchool]

Thanks billy the kid,

Enough dirty laundry courteous of the committee to fill a commercial laundry, thankfully that has come to a end. The new Chair/President seems to have been able to refocus the committee.

I agree that money won't be the only factor to determine which clubs are successful in the WNPL but I do strongly believe the clubs that have a healthy bank balance and are prepared to spend will have a strong advantage over those clubs that can't or won't spend the dollars. It's not just money for players wages its money for coaches, trainers and infrastructure to make training more effective and support the coaching staff get the best out of their squads. Why should the Women's game be any different to the Men's game things have begun changing and are not about to go backwards.

Fulham did not do the their club reputation any favors or win many friends in the wider football community using FIFO players when playing softer opponents and the club decided it was financially viable to bring in the 'guns for hire'

As for what is happening at Cumby and their relegation prospects, the current situation is that they have been relegated, players and members/parents accept that and there is no widespread expectation that somebody can pull a rabbit out of a hat or can perform a miracle. Having said that there is talk around the club that the FFSA has again raised the prospect of expanding the WNPL. The club is hopeful that if that's the final outcome after an end of a season review by the FFSA that the club can mount a successful argument to be one of the expansion clubs. Based on a very successful juniors program, and that the FFSA would be left with no 'elite women's club' south of the city, and the very large pool of money that is being dangled by the local, state and federal governments for the redevelopment of the grounds is based on the club being in the Prems it would be a difficult choice by the FFSA to choose to exclude Cumby from the Prems. If a solution can be found then for the sake of the Women's game such a move should be supported by anybody who claims to support the WNPL.

The chair/president has recently released a letter to all club members, it was a lengthy read but very comprehensive and clearly outlined vision for the club. While the topic of staying in the prems was never raised there is no doubt that any application to remain in the Prems would be accompanied by a very strong business plan that would show a path to get Cumby back to being a competitive and prosperous club. There is an air of optimism around the club, the announcement of the new senior coaching team is imminent along with the plan on how to get the club back on track.

Stay tuned, this will probably make a good book one day

[Brenton T]

OldSchool you make a lot of sense.

Hopefully the book doesn't show the casualties of poor stewardship i.e. the players They always should be at the pointy end of at decision making.

I have heard that there was a shake up and that things had gotten better. I must say I was impressed with the way the team played in the last few rounds.

On the FIFO comments, someone on the forum suggested that those players in question showed loyalty to the club in question. Yep loyalty for sure $$$$$$$$$$$$$. Cannot blame the players in question for FIFO however, the club in question will have its work cut out if it is to rise above bottom in 2019. For mine. It's same old same old for that club. Good on Cumberland for sticking to what it had to work with. However. that cub in question may say "Do whatever it takes" to remain in the WNPL.

[juniorsupporter]

I imagine I'll cop it a bit for this, but here it goes:

All of this discussion about loyalty and the noble act of making due with what one has is all well and good but the competition has evolved- to think that the top clubs just work with what they have, and don't recruit in the off season to fill gaps is ludicrous. This season Metro recruited heavily, as did West Adelaide and to a lesser extent City. Look at the rosters of the top 3 clubs- how many of those players came exclusively through the junior ranks of those clubs? Not many.

Furthermore, those players aren't just training twice/week and rocking up on Friday nights. They're in the gym, at the physio, watching their diets and training three times/week on the park. The WNPL isn't a social competition.

Cumberland needs to bring in players if they want their senior program to improve. And not just recent NTC graduates. They need a few players with solid experience at the highest levels of the game to lead and to help develop younger players. Otherwise the cycle will continue as it has for the last 6 years or so.

Fulham (the club in question) did what they needed to do to stay up. Bravo. Jenna is a class act and any club would be lucky to have her- she couldn't commit fully because of her AFL commitments, but she played when she could and took on a coaching role at the club. She brought a lot to the table and should be applauded for helping out. Other players came out of retirement to help as well out of loyalty to Fulham and Max. So let's not bash Fulham because they were resourceful.

I have a great deal of time for both Cumberland and Fulham and want to see their senior teams improve. I applaud the hard work that volunteers at both clubs are putting in to insure success. But both programs need a revamp- you can't keep doing the same thing and expect a different result. It sounds as if Cumberland is asking some hard questions- I look forward to the coaching announcements....

[Coyote]

juniorsupporter has hit the nail on the head!

If Cumberland had taken a similar approach to Fulham I am sure they would not have been in the position that they are faced with now. I can only assume that finances prevented them going down the same path as Fulham. Having said this, I think a better approach for the long term success for a club is to firstly spend money to get the best coaching staff not on one or two players. This in turn should attract more quality players to be competitive. The problem Cumberland faces from relegation is that by dropping out of the WNPL, they will gain zero quality players no matter who the coach is and possibly lose some of their own better players who want to continue at this level. It then becomes a very long road back to the WNPL. Para Hills and Campbelltown are recent examples of this. In today’s world, if any club does not have a strong financial position it makes it very hard to compete against the teams that currently have quality coaches and support staff who have already attracted quality players. As juniorsupporter suggests, the top 3 teams are evidence of this.

“The greatest risk of all is to take no risk”. Fulham took a risk by paying a couple of players good money (from what I hear) and it may prove to be the greatest decision that the club has ever made.

[billy the kid]

Great discussion here and respectful. Very informed comments albeit they all have a different approach or opinion.

As the saying goes, give a man fish you feed him for a day. teach him to fish and he will eat all his life. The point her is, throwing money to stay in the WNPL is one thing. Whether it is sustainable in 2019 and beyond is another thing. As Junior said, the top 3 clubs have programs and players in pace that dedicate a lot of time and their own (and club) resources to be the best they can. The off field and football programs are excellent and will always attract the better players to their clubs and hence the cycle of success continues.

[nathanburns15]

It appears Cumberland have avoided relegation after all.

[billy the kid]

GREAT NEWS. So the news about their demise was premature?

No promotion then for Comets?